Proposed anti metal detecting law in Carthage, MO

[Mark S.]

Important call for assistance.

The city of Carthage, MO will be voting on an ordinance to limit metal detecting on city property. This vote is scheduled for Aug. 9. It had a first reading at the July 26 meeting and appears to be headed for an easy pass.

The links below will fill you in on some of the details. I have not seen the actual proposed ordinance. Only know that it will use the “100 year rule”. The bill does not appear on the cities website. However the last link is an important read before you make any contacts. It appears that they do not want to inhibit metal detecting. They are being misled and even bullied by some elitist archaeologists.

Here is the short version. A couple was featured in a front-page newspaper article on metal detecting on city property. They were finding civil war items and also dug a bone with a bullet lodged in it. They contacted a city official and showed the finds to him along with divulging the location. They did the proper thing. Along comes an archaeologists from the state university chastising them and the city in a letter to the editor. Now there is a knee jerk law proposed. The archaeologists want a total ban.

Please make sure you read this to the end before taking any action. Then please act.


Here are the links;

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110704/NEWS01/107040347/1007/Artifacts-reminder-Carthage-battle

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110708/OPINIONS02/107080306/0/NEWS12/?odyssey=nav|head

http://www.carthagepress.com/news/x...ttee-forwards-archeology-ordinance-to-council

http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110718/NEWS01/107180336/0/SPORTS/?odyssey=nav|head

http://www.carthagepress.com/news/x643156898/Carthage-council-advances-historic-finds-city-ordinance


Here are the contacts for the mayor and the council members. You will notice that the email addresses are all the same. I would suggest placing each persons name in the subject line and copying your message to each one. You could also call or snail mail them. At the bottom are some items you may wish to bring up. Put them in your own words of course.



Mayor Mike Harris

Phone:
(417) 358-5940
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
603 E. 3rd Street
Carthage, MO 64836


Council Member Claude Newport- 1st Ward
Phone:
(417) 358-1307
Fax:
(417) 358-7528
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
1515 Buena Vista
Carthage, MO 64836





Council Member Jim Swatsenbarg-1st Ward
Phone:
(417) 358-1690
Address:
601 Howard Street
Carthage, MO 64836
E-Mail
[email protected]

Council Member Timothy Teed- 2nd Ward
Phone:
(417) 310-2875
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
701 Olive Street
Carthage, MO 64836

Council Member John Studebaker- 3rd Ward
Phone:
(417) 358-0792
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
1058 S. Garrison
Carthage, MO 64836

Council Member Steve Leibbrand-3rd Ward

Phone:
(417) 358-3918
Address:
1654 Connor Drive
Carthage. MO 64836
Email:
[email protected]

Council Member Dan Rife- 4th Ward
Phone:
(417) 850-7455
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
2203 Grand
Carthage, MO 64836

Council Member John Cooper- 4th Ward
Phone:
(417) 359-6748
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
1333 Hafner Court
Carthage, MO 64836

Council Member Brent Greninger- 5th Ward
Phone:
(417) 358-7858
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
1416 Hazel Street
Carthage, MO 64836

Council Member Ed Hardesty- 5th Ward
Phone:
(417) 358-4708
Email:
[email protected]
Address:
118 Wiggins
Carthage, MO 64836




1. The archaeologist mentions the excavations at the Little Big Horn (Custer) battlefield. He slyly fogets to mention that the archaeological survey was conducted by approximately 150 people swinging metal detectors.

2. This is a knee jerk reaction to some archaeologists personal power agenda. These university arcaheologists do not control the city or have any say so at all in it. He has no more say so in the cities laws than any other citizen. The city should not allow itself to be bullied by someone on a power trip who thinks that archaeologists are the only people who have a right to history.

3. Was there a problem in the past with metal detecting? Suddenly there is a problem. Why? It was created by an archaeologist who has his underwear in a knot because something was found and he did not get credit for it. If these sites are so important then ask them when they are going to excavate them. The reply will be when someone pays them to do it.

4. Metal detectorists are more then happy to show and display their finds. Most will gladly share the information with the city if asked. Provided the finds are not going to be confiscated and they are not made into criminals.

5. A 100 year rule is absurd. This makes a 1910 wheat penny off limits. If something must be enacted then simply protect known but important historical sites without setting any limits on all items in all areas. Most items found are worth little and of no use to the city. It will only cost the city money to administer and police the policy. And make criminals out of decent honest people.

6. Archaeologists routinely call us grave robbers and looters. I do not know of any metal detector users who have ever dug a grave. Archaeologist dig graves! We do not desecrate graves. Archaeologists do! Our items are available for anyone to see. The archaeologists lock them away in some basement or in their own personal collections and no one is allowed to see them.

Remember to be polite but informative. These council members may know very little, if anything at all about the metal detecting hobby and they do appear to be fair minded. They may only know what they are being fed by these archaeologists. You need to educate them.


Thankyou,

Mark Schuessler
FMDAC Legislative Officer

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Mark, this is a very well written post. Your suggested comments at the end, to public officials, puts a very accurate face on the errors of the purist archie camp. That is: No one disputes having set-aside historical monuments, protected sensitive sites, etc.... But to take the stance that all public land is off-limits to everyone except archies, is crazy. Even the most well-funded university archaeological dept's will never, in a million years, begin to even scratch the surface on all the acreage of even a single city or state park (given the speed of coverage of their 4 x 4 pits they spend an entire summer on).

With that said, I read each article you linked carefully. I know you are not the subject of the articles, and are thus not responsible for the happenings there, but I studied carefully trying to figure out how such a proposed law could even have come on the radar .... TO BEGIN WITH. Ie.: what are the factors that make us a "big red target", for an archie like this to come make a fuss? Because, let's face it: we md'rs are NOT going to get archies to "love us" in this hobby, are we? I mean, do you REALLY think you're ever going to get types like this to change their opinion of you, or stop "making stinks" when they can??

First off, I asked myself why those persons who found the coin, the bullets, etc... went back to the city to show off their finds? I mean, heck, isn't finding human bones the LAST thing you want to show off to others? Here in CA, the last thing a demolition or construction contractor wants to find is human bones (especially indian) on a construction site, lest his site be "shut down" I mean, why, oh why, did the md'rs in this story go parade their find down at city hall for pete's sake?

I studied the articles deeply, and came across this evolutionary quote:

"Carthage City Administrator Tom Short said he’s not sure who gave the Burkis permission to conduct the search, but it wasn’t him or Alan Bull, the city’s parks director.

He said the city also doesn’t prohibit metal detector users from searching in public parks, but they should get permission."

I don't get it. If detecting isn't prohibited (as the city guy acknowledges) then why should they "get permission"? I mean, isn't that a little like saying "flying frisbees isn't prohibited, but you should still get permission"?

I'm not saying this particular Carthage issue isn't one to rally solidarity over NOW (now that's it's at this point), but you have to ask yourself if the original couple might have simply practiced a little more common sense and discretion, ..... to have simply avoided this "no one cares till you ask or make a fuss" psychology. Ie.: why can't people just stop making themselves a big target?

 

[Nugget Hunter Smith]

Hindsight on the issue of their finds does not matter now. None of the items they found tell us any new history of the area or are of any significant archaeological value in my opinion.

What bothers me on this new proposed law is the definition of an historical item. Coins should not be included no matter what their date. As far as I can find there is none. That leaves it open to interpitation which is not good.

Please email the council members, be polite and point out the good things that metal detecting does for the city's citizens. Like being able to return found items to the rightful owner, removing harmful items (needles, pieces of jagged metal, ect) from the parks grounds that can damage city equipment and hurt people.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

" Hindsight on the issue of their finds does not matter now ... "

For this case, which has progressed to this point, that is true. But where it DOES matter, is to be a lesson for others reading this, to not replicate the same mistakes.

Perhaps the FMDAC can have a few webpages on their website about this. Ie.: a link or page or whatever educating people on some of the no-no's on a pyschological "sore thumb" "red-bullseye-target" aspect of things. Whatcha say Mark? If you're agreeable to that, I'll write it, and you can put it on your site. Pending whatever edits you want to do, of course. Deal?

 

[mts]

" Hindsight on the issue of their finds does not matter now ... "

For this case, which has progressed to this point, that is true. But where it DOES matter, is to be a lesson for others reading this, to not replicate the same mistakes.

Perhaps the FMDAC can have a few webpages on their website about this. Ie.: a link or page or whatever educating people on some of the no-no's on a pyschological "sore thumb" "red-bullseye-target" aspect of things. Whatcha say Mark? If you're agreeable to that, I'll write it, and you can put it on your site. Pending whatever edits you want to do, of course. Deal?

Do the rest of us get to edit it as well? Because I'm sure there are a lot of us that don't agree with you. It seems to me that you are up on your soapbox and beating the same old drum again about permission and "mistakes". Why don't you start your own thread or website about your "permission hangup" and let this thread remain about getting something done about this ridiculous law?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

mts, I am waiting to see the data to dispel what I have written? I'm looking hard through what you have written, to try to understand where you are disagreeing with me, but fail to see anything? Please expound.

And I have already acknowledged that "what's done is done" in this Carthage case, and there is nothing to do ..... but join in solidarity. Will gladly do that.

And in addition to that, hope that people will look deeply here .... and see the things that could have been done (or not done) to have avoided this dilema, so that future such cases don't keep occuring elsewhere. To me, that is "getting something done" .... isn't it?

 

[mts]

mts, I am waiting to see the data to dispel what I have written? I'm looking hard through what you have written, to try to understand where you are disagreeing with me, but fail to see anything? Please expound.

And I have already acknowledged that "what's done is done" in this Carthage case, and there is nothing to do ..... but join in solidarity. Will gladly do that.

And in addition to that, hope that people will look deeply here .... and see the things that could have been done (or not done) to have avoided this dilema, so that future such cases don't keep occuring elsewhere. To me, that is "getting something done" .... isn't it?

Even though you acknowledge that "what's done is done" you continue to push for people to accept your beliefs as if they are gospel. You talk about what could have been done or "not done" to avoid the dilemma. Well clearly, Marc does not agree that something "wrong" was done. And I don't either. You continue to take any chance you can get to get up on your soap box and preach your beliefs. Yet many of us don't agree with them. It gets tiring. And my goal is to make you realize that you are hijacking threads in order to push your personal beliefs on others. I guess that is your prerogative. But if you at least become aware that you are doing it, perhaps you will refrain from doing it so often.

I guess one can only hope. Peace.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"Yet many of us don't agree with them ...."

And alternatively, many do agree.

Am still waiting to see and understand the reasons why you don't agree. You keep saying you disagree, and that I'm on "a soap box", etc... Great. Yet fail to offer any data to counter what I've said. So there's really nothing here to respond to, given the lack of any counter points?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I'm not saying this particular Carthage issue isn't one to rally solidarity over NOW (now that's it's at this point), but you have to ask yourself if the original couple might have simply practiced a little more common sense and discretion, ..... to have simply avoided this "no one cares till you ask or make a fuss" psychology. Ie.: why can't people just stop making themselves a big target?

Very true Tom.....

Trouble starts when people go to some newspaper/news station or an elected authority figure bragging saying " look here, see what I found"......

 

[Mark S.]

To shed a bit more light on this situation.

My understanding is that the finders went to the city to report it mainly due to the human bone. With the way the laws are concerning human remains they were protecting themslves against possible future legal or even crimnal action. I do not know exactly how the newspaper article came about but the whole deal is an unfortunate consequence of some people trying to do the right thing.

I too would feel obligated to do the same if I dug a human bone. Right or wrong, should or shouldn't, I would just not feel right to not report it. We could debate the merits until we filled the internet to capacity. This boils down to the archaeologists exthorting a situation where the proper action was taken. They themselved are the ones responsible for initiating all those laws and now that someone has actually reported such a find they are chastised and penalized.

 

[mts]

To shed a bit more light on this situation.

My understanding is that the finders went to the city to report it mainly due to the human bone. With the way the laws are concerning human remains they were protecting themslves against possible future legal or even crimnal action. I do not know exactly how the newspaper article came about but the whole deal is an unfortunate consequence of some people trying to do the right thing.

I too would feel obligated to do the same if I dug a human bone. Right or wrong, should or shouldn't, I would just not feel right to not report it. We could debate the merits until we filled the internet to capacity. This boils down to the archaeologists exthorting a situation where the proper action was taken. They themselved are the ones responsible for initiating all those laws and now that someone has actually reported such a find they are chastised and penalized.

I completely agree. I see no reason to chastise the original finders for letting the authorities know that they found a human bone. That bone could be the piece of forensic evidence that breaks open a murder case. Or it could be the piece of missing history that archaeologists need to discover a new site. It is ridiculous that archaeologists chastise the finders when it is in fact finders like these that keep archaeologists in business and bring history to light. I guarantee you that no archaeologists has or would have ever investigated this piece of public land. Instead, they routinely sit back and wait for people to find it and bring it to their attention. They then swoop down and take over while proceeding to bite the hand that feeds them. I wonder how many actual historic sites this particular archaeologist has found on his own? I would bet that the number is a whopping ZERO.

None of this is the original finders fault and I see no reason to blame them for "becoming a target". Let's let the blame rest solely on the shoulders of the ungrateful archaeologists who, without finders, would have nothing to even investigate.

 

[mts]

"Yet many of us don't agree with them ...."

And alternatively, many do agree.

Am still waiting to see and understand the reasons why you don't agree. You keep saying you disagree, and that I'm on "a soap box", etc... Great. Yet fail to offer any data to counter what I've said. So there's really nothing here to respond to, given the lack of any counter points?

If you want to start a separate thread announcing your beliefs then feel free to do so. I may even take the time to debate your beliefs with you. However, I refuse to contribute to the further hijacking of this thread just so that you can save face. This is not the place for counter arguments to your whole belief system. You are entitled to your beliefs. And Marc is entitled to not having you turn his cause into your personal soap box.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Fair enough mts. We all agree that none of this shoulda/woulda will help this situation now, so I see the point that this thread is not for that. Ie.: this is already pending to go into effect, so no turning back the clock ....... whether or not someone believes there was, or wasn't anything that could have been done differently in the start. Agreed.

I look forward to hearing from you, if a thread does appear, where this is a correct dialogue. I am truly very interested (as I'm sure we all are), in keeping these things "at bay" in the future. And truly want to know where and if there is glitches in my thinking about this. I look forward to your feedback, and will be open-minded to change my thinking.

 

[Nugget Hunter Smith]

Good News!
Through the effort of people across the country, and even England, emailing the council members, along with a few of the council members doing their own research, this proposal has been tabled for good.
The council was very surprised by the amount of emails they received. This tactic of swamping a city or county with emails from the metal detecting community has been very effective in stopping detecting bans for the past couple of years.
Thank all of you for helping out!

 

[mts]

That's great news!

 

[Mark S.]

Here is the article from the Carthage Press.

Looks like the archae's in this case have been exposed. Thanks to all for your well written and informative emails.


By John Hacker
The Carthage Press
Posted Aug 11, 2011 @ 12:54 PM

CARTHAGE, Mo. —
Carthage Mayor Mike Harris said “exaggerated and erroneous information” led the council to give preliminary approval to an ordinance controlling metal detecting in city parks.

At Harris’ request, the Carthage City Council tabled indefinitely final consideration of the ordinance that would have required anyone wanting to use a metal detector in a city park to sign a request sheet and turn any artifact that was older than 100 years over to the city.

The vote to table was unanimous.

“The passage of time made me kind of sit back and look at it less emotionally,” Harris said after Tuesday’s meeting. “Then we received many well-written letters from metal detectorists, if that is a word, and also there were historians who feel that they serve a vital role in uncovering artifacts, perhaps more vital than archeologists, who only do that for fees. Most of what we read really made sense and shed a different light on the subject.”

The bill was drawn up as a result of publicity given by the Springfield News-Leader in early July to a rural Carthage couple who found several Civil War-era bullets, including a bullet embedded in a piece of bone, while using a metal detector in a city park.

A Springfield archeologist wrote a letter to the newspaper chastising it for publicizing the find and chastising Carthage for not controlling metal detector use on city-owned property.

The couple showed their finds to Jasper County Records Center Director Steve Weldon, who said later that some of the statements in the newspaper article, such as one saying the couple dig a 5-foot-by-5-foot hole to uncover the artifacts, were not accurate.

“The article in the Springfield paper had gross mis-statements, an example of one was that the people that found that artifact uncovered a 25-square-foot area,” Harris said. “That’s ridiculous.”

Harris said he’s convinced that hobbyists are generally an honorable bunch and will work with the city if anything of historic value is found.

“If you go to the Civil War Museum and to the courthouse civil war museum, you will see that numerous artifacts there have been donated by citizens that, I’m sure, found them and felt obligated to share that with the public,” Harris said. “I think by and large, that would happen with most people.”

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Most awesome outcome. thanx for the report. Yes, we md'rs and "collectors" do more for the preservation and knowledge of history, than some militant "purist" archies do. As evidence of that, you'll often find that in their attempt to ID targets, they often find themselves referencing books written by collectors, diggers, etc.... to ID dates on bottles, tokens, accoutraments, buttons, etc.... without realizing that some of those reference works were written via studies by hardcore collectors/diggers, whom they are supposed to be disdaining. Some of us hobbyists become actually quite learned, and yes, donate items to museums all the time.

And to the extent some of it ends up on ebay, or a private mantle place, it remains true that there becomes a point at which a seated dime, or bullet, or button, etc... ceases to say anything new about a time or culture. And no amount of time and money will ever 100% excavate every speck of public land, even in a single city, county, or state park. It's simply impossible.

And when you think of it, when it comes to "human remains", metal detecting is ACTUALLY the much more politically correct method anyhow. Because unlike archaeological sifting, where every single cotton-picking bone is handled and touched, metal detecting, on the other hand, *only* goes right to metal objects, surgically in the ground, bypassing coincidental bones which might be in the vicinity, leaving them untouched. But archies touch, handle, every single rock, twig, etc... So it seems like detecting is the more sensitive approach to retrieving targets, rather than sifting pits.

 

[Dimeman]

If the people had just found the bullet they would have not said anything...but since the bullet was lodged in a bone--they contacted the proper authorities and for that, one archaeologist got mad because he didn't get credit for the location and complained to the newspapers and officials. From what I also read in articles on that particular ban, the archie forgot to mention in the Little Big Horn battlefield when they located all the artifacts to figure out how the battle took place---metal detector volunteers were used to locate them.
He got caught mis-informing the officials and distorting facts, and the officials reversed their decision. Having metal detector users from all over send emails also helped in overturning the ban.
It could happen in any given area no matter what.