Professional cleaning, opinions and comments.

[gleaner1]

I mentioned this subject in jgas' recent banner thread (once again, congrats jgas). I noticed my comments evoked some interesting dialog so I thought it would make a good topic. So, what are pros, and cons? Does it increase/decrease value, and why? Why would anyone pay to have it done? Why do people consider buying the machine which costs about 500+ beans? Why do people offer this type of service? Most pro privy diggers tumble up a rare soda or bitters quicker than a hog gobbles up a snake. But now epackage and jgas got me scratchin' my noggin...I was seriously considering sending two nice dug bottles off to the pro cleaner, now I'm not sure. I will post picks of these two bottles later tonight. I think jgas should do the double eagle flask, and I think jgas' nice amber pickle should see chopped copper wire bits, water and powdered aluminum oxide ASAP. Anyway, this will give us four pieces to discuss pros/cons.

 

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[Gobpile]

Don't do it! I only tumble common bottles to sell at the flea market or my booth at an antique store! It will hurt the value to the true collectors out there let them do it.Plus what they charge is robbery.I have been digging for over 15 years and have dug some rare bottles and would never tumble them.

 

[gleaner1]

Gobpile, its good to see a guy who tumbles bottles is the first to respond. Can you elaborate more on the "Don't do it" part? Why would you tumble common bottles to sell at the flea market? What is the advantage of that? It takes how long to dress up a bottle in a tumbler? One, two, three days?. Are you doubling or tripling the value of common bottles for the flea market by tumbling them? How much does it cost to have a bottle cleaned if you send it away to a pro? What kind of investment (money-wise) do you have in your tumbler? Do you make your own tubes and stopples or do you buy them? Is it an investment that you recommend? Why would you not put all that effort into improving a rare piece? Would you tumble a 100% sick cobalt soda to turn it from a 200 dollar dump monster into a 1000 dollar blazer?

Why do highly regarded antique bottle professionals/collectors/auctioneers say things like "this is a very nice piece which would improve nicely with a day or two in the tumbler"? One thing is for sure, professionally cleaning a bottle improves value. Unlike bottles, very few coins benefit by professional cleaning. Do not make the mistake of assuming cleaning of bottles is a no-no like coins, it is completely opposite, it is a yes-yes. The whole subject is complex and the whole essence of this I think is the decision to clean or not to clean, based on the rarity and sickness/scratchiness of the piece.

 

[epackage]

Hi gleaner, this is a great topic and my point is Jgas's flask has no sickness at all and looks awesome after a short soak so I would leave it. I have seen so many bottles overdone and many "bad" sellers label them as attic fresh, like they didn't know they were tumbled, try and sell them to unknowing buyers that it has always made me against it. I have two good examples of Paterson NJ bottles (my specialized area of collecting) and one is in the dug condition and didn't need any thing but a good soak and the other will be tumbled because of some sickness as you can see.

I will be selling or trading the tumbled one and keeping the soaked one for my collection because it has a bit more character having never been professionally cleaned. I may just try a Muriatic Acid cleaning first and not even do the tumbling thing and see how it looks, tumbling to me is like the botox and plastic surgery of the bottle world. Alot of my friends on ABN like their bottles tumbled to show all the whittle but not me, it's just a matter of taste I guess....The Muriatic Acid may have the one on the left looking as good as the right one.......Jim

 

[gleaner1]

epackage, good points. I have posted a couple I want polished, I still am not sure if I will do it. One is a honey amber quart flask hammered with whittle and the other is a quart teal Massena Springs. I have read before that some people in the business have a hard time telling if a bottle has been tumbled or if it has been freshly recovered from an attic or wall.

 

[epackage]

I would say doing both of those in a "light" tumble would be great, just don't over do it IMHO....I have two pint flasks that color that will get the acid treatment before anything else and I'll post pic's after I do them later this week....Jim....Love these color flasks and even though they don't fit into my collection I will still keep them....Jim....thats just a reflection of some trees on the back of the amber Warranted flask, love those yellows!!!!

 

[jgas]

Hello all, once again thanks for all the wonderful responses to the Eagle Flask. Now with regards to tumbling bottles. Being that I have a friend who tumbles bottles on a regular basis and he has really good success doing it, I would not be opposed to doing it. It is a costly venture for sure. Even just having him do it would cost me $15-$30 a bottle. Or most likely I would trade him a bottle or two for the tumble job. (the winter is the time to do it)....Digging ends here soon

I do believe that some bottles would surely increase in value with a good tumble. With that said, I think that tumbling a bottle and making it look as new as the day it was molded is in the eye of the beholder or collector. I personally love the look of the bottles with a bit of character, i.e. dirt/ haze etc. Some people love a "perfect" bottle. I really don't think finding one in the ground from 135 years ago will ever be perfect but I don't care. Its perfect the way it is in my opinion. You will see the full spectrum of ideas, thoughts, opinions in this thread I am sure. Bottom line is that if you are a collector, your eyes see differently than mine. I love the history behind the bottles I find. Just to think who touched it before I did. Much the same as a metal detectorist and his coins. I have sold some of my finds, not that I need to cash, but I knew the people really wanted the find and it will make then much more happier and fill a hole so to speak in their personal collections. It can be a very fruitful hobby as far as $$$ that goes. But I will always do this hobby for the fun and enjoyment of discovery and if the dollar factor takes over then I will find another hobby. Now it's my personal opinion to let the new owner do his or her tumbling after purchase. That goes along the lines of " you break it, you already bought it." Takes the fear out of it for me. I guess that just about says it. I do love this thread though and thank you for posting it. It will hopefully enlighten some of us in the digging community. Jgas

 

[gleaner1]

Jim, nice grouping. Both of mine have been cleaned on the inside with a sand/pebble/water shake treatment then a good soak in CLR. All that was left was pure sickness. Its brutal how a dump can eat up glass like it does, then five feet away you can pull something out shiny mint.

 

[gleaner1]

jgas does your tumbler buddy take on jobs from the general public? If so, I would be interested in giving him a call. My bottles are dying to be polished. I hear you about preference. Some folks like the character, some like the shine. Actually, I really didn't mean you should do the flask, I was thinking about the amber pickle. THAT is a sick one. If you shine it, show pics please.

 

[jgas]

I will ask him if he has done anything for other people as far as tumbling goes. He is an avid digger and collector. He surely needed a tumbler for all the stuff he has. I may get that pickle done over the winter and post it.

But I am going digging tomorrow......Yahoooooo.... jgas

 

[gleaner1]

Thanks jgas Go get another one, I feel intense bottle recovery energies.....

 

[glasartisan]

Good evening gentleman,
I thought I would add my nickle to this topic.First of all Ive been professionally polishing antique bottles and glass for 18 years. Started with my own stuff that I dig from privys. Once I had many bottles under my belt and tweaked my machines the way I wanted them to do the job I started to advertise at bottle shows that I tumble bottles. Currently I clean for many dealers and private collectors alike all over the US.
Now I can honestly tell you that PROPERLY cleaning a bottle is going to make it more desireable and valuable than an uncleaned bottle.Why is that? First of all you have a Hostetters that you just dug up. You simply clean it up with soap and water and now take it to the show. It has a moderate patina on the outside and content stain in the inside.The color appears to be honey or is it really yellow that seem to have olive overtones to it.The dealer you take it to at your local show asks you if he can take it out side to get some uv sunlight thru it.He comes back and tells you that hes afraid to offer you a fair deal because he is not sure what color it really is. Light honey maybe $75.00, yellow a couple $100.00 bucks or once cleaned professionally it turns out to have olive in it.$500.00 and higher.Or he is hesitant because there could be fissure in the glass or unforeseen potstone hiding underneath all that sickness. He cant tell if there is damage or not to your bottle. Now you take that same bottle to me or any reputable glass polisher to have that patina and only patina removed and also the content stain you now have that bottles true color and luster shining thru. And as a added bonus, proper cleaning will bring out the character of the bottle like mold marks , bubbles,striations in the glass and of course the embossing.If your dealer did offer you something it would most likely be a low ball offer to protect himself because of the unknown.Your bottle turned out to have olive in it and now he feels much more comfortable to offer you a premium on your bottle because he now knows the true color and that there is no damage hiding in the glass.
Now you also need to know that with cleaning glass there are unforeseen surprises that lie underneath the sickness sometimes. Though it is rare that it happens,flaws are found that can present problems when cleaning.Potstones, burst bubbles, thin glass, bird swings found in bottles, bruises and cracks and other flaws. I always look the bottles over very good under lamps and magnifyers to spot these areas and if I do find something I always let the customer know what I found and what I think would be the survival rate if it is going to be cleaned.Even a piece with no visible flaws can have instability in it or it might not have been properly annealed and can crack during the polishing process but it is rare.I have been around glass along time and I kind of have a feel for what can and can not be cleaned.
I always treat the piece as if it was my own. What would I do.If you would like more info on the subject go to Mr. bottles.com and click on the glass polishing link and I go into depth on more aspects of cleaning and polishing bottles properly.Thanks, Steve

 

[1]

Great topic. Here are my two cents:
I have done some privy digging. It has declined for lack of time the last few years. Anyway, when I first got started I was hot to trot on getting my finds cleaned up and looking good for the shelf. I had a lot of local bottles that were valuable to me but had no super great value on the market. I couldn’t justify sending them out to be cleaned. I did my research and built my own tumbler to save money. It was a lot of fun putting them in the machine and opening them up after a week of tumbling and seeing how nicely they turned out.
I remember a nice old lady whose yard we were digging. We found a Lydia Pinkham’s bottle in one of the pits. She remembered hearing about the product when she was a youth. I took the bottle home to polish and give back to her. Now mind you these are big, thick, heavy bottles. I about crapped when I pulled it out of the machine and the shoulders were blown out of it. I remember thinking how lucky I was it wasn’t one of my good bottles. Needless to say I stopped polishing the good ones. As a matter of fact I haven’t tumbled one in four years.
Another time my buddy and I found a rare colored pontil med. We sent it off to be professionally cleaned rather than run the risk of messing it up ourselves. The cleaner offered insurance for extra money in case the bottle broke. We thought this was cool and purchased insurance. The bottle survived the tumble, but I was less then impressed with the professional cleaning. I think it was such a small bottle that it was tough to get perfect.
Personally, if I found a high dollar bottle($500 or more) that I was going to sell, I would send it to a pro to be cleaned.
Here is what I now do with my keepers. I clean them up with a nice long soak in muriatic acid. I then soak them in water to clean of the acid. Then, I hit them inside and out with acrylic sealer. You can get this in a spray can at your local auto parts store. What it does is seal the sickness. You will be amazed at how beautiful your bottles look. It is a cheap alternative to getting them cleaned. Let me know if you give this a try.

 

[gleaner1]

Great topic. Here are my two cents:
I have done some privy digging. It has declined for lack of time the last few years. Anyway, when I first got started I was hot to trot on getting my finds cleaned up and looking good for the shelf. I had a lot of local bottles that were valuable to me but had no super great value on the market. I couldn’t justify sending them out to be cleaned. I did my research and built my own tumbler to save money. It was a lot of fun putting them in the machine and opening them up after a week of tumbling and seeing how nicely they turned out.
I remember a nice old lady whose yard we were digging. We found a Lydia Pinkham’s bottle in one of the pits. She remembered hearing about the product when she was a youth. I took the bottle home to polish and give back to her. Now mind you these are big, thick, heavy bottles. I about crapped when I pulled it out of the machine and the shoulders were blown out of it. I remember thinking how lucky I was it wasn’t one of my good bottles. Needless to say I stopped polishing the good ones. As a matter of fact I haven’t tumbled one in four years.
Another time my buddy and I found a rare colored pontil med. We sent it off to be professionally cleaned rather than run the risk of messing it up ourselves. The cleaner offered insurance for extra money in case the bottle broke. We thought this was cool and purchased insurance. The bottle survived the tumble, but I was less then impressed with the professional cleaning. I think it was such a small bottle that it was tough to get perfect.
Personally, if I found a high dollar bottle($500 or more) that I was going to sell, I would send it to a pro to be cleaned.
Here is what I now do with my keepers. I clean them up with a nice long soak in muriatic acid. I then soak them in water to clean of the acid. Then, I hit them inside and out with acrylic sealer. You can get this in a spray can at your local auto parts store. What it does is seal the sickness. You will be amazed at how beautiful your bottles look. It is a cheap alternative to getting them cleaned. Let me know if you give this a try.

Clear poly or acrylic spray does work wonders, no doubt. Why is $500 the magic number for return on investment? Why would you not polish a 50 dollar dump monster to turn it into a 250 blazer?

 

[1]

Gleaner,

My digging buds and I have a gentlemen’s agreement that if we find a bottle valued at more than $500 we would sell it. It would definitely be cleaned by a professional to get max dollars. We don’t find many high end bottles with national appeal. Our cities were pretty small back then, and it seems the quality and quantity of national bottles isn’t the same as what is found east of here.
We have a strong base of guys who collect local bottles. I have sold off and traded some doubles to these guys. They have their own experts that do their polishing and feel better about having it done by them rather than me. Polishing these local bottles wouldn’t increase their value that considerably.
The last reason for not polishing is the cost. I have hundreds of what I consider keepers. At $30 a piece I would be broke trying to clean them….LOL. I did build a machine to save money. But, it is inferior to the ones you can purchase. It is very enjoyable and not difficult to do your own polishing. Although it is messy. I would recommend purchasing one rather than building one. I would have been better off. I can only tumble one bottle at a time and breakdowns were not uncommon.
I hope this helps.

 

[gleaner1]

Thanks 1. I see your points, all this info is pretty good stuff.