Pre Colonial American Dream....

[SOHIO]

We're all familiar with our societies versions of the American dream, but what did some of americas ancient cultures dream about? What could have been on their minds daily. Its sad to think that for thousands of years prehistories main concern was eating and studying signs that would lead them to better eating. There is no doubt in my mind that eating was the american dream way back when. These peoples were human just like us and something within them had to have desired something better for themselves other than eating. When their bellies were full what do you think they thought about. Love? That would be the next desire on our survival list, without love and family, they were no different than the animals they hunted.

Some cultures as we know WERE trying to build civilizations for themselves to live within, as with say the hopewell or cahokia traditions. Obviously they had the drive and motivation it took to be working towards one idea. But what was it? Love? Love of an idea? Love of discovering imagination? Why after thousands of years did something not click with these societies. How could it have taken 10,000 or more years for peoples to realize how to plant something and reap a harvest. Some cultures seemed to have been intelligent enough, so why didn't that come to them earlier. 10,000 years was a long time for humankind to be stuck in a rut.

Your probably familiar with how shockingly in tune some cultures were with the study of astronomy and mathamatics, I can't understand that with the brain capacity to build or design with the precision some monuments and even mounds were built with, how more wasn't accomplished by them. Something lacking of course was invention, look at how long they relied on the same tools and weapons. They seemed to have never had their renascence. Why?

 

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[1320]

Same tools and weapons...if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Civilizations aren't planned, they happen and only then with population explosions.

Invention....tool variety shows that natives were in fact inventors. Tool progression suggests the same. Technology is generally the path to invention, which natives had none but then I say...if it's not broke, don't fix it or don't re-engineer it. Dewindling supplies also force invention but again, not seen as a problem 10,000 years ago.

Planting......Archaeologists too focused on lithics. One Clovis site (possibly pre-Clovis) suggests that farming was in full swing (Monte Verde?). I don't recall the site name. It's difficult to prove farming happened because the evidence has been eaten. Not to mention, plant evidence just doesn't stick around very long. Until we find a garden under a layer of volcanic ash, I guess we'll just have to say that they didn't know how to farm. In a Clovis long term camp, where supplies were sufficient and nomadic principles weren't required, you can bet your ass farming happened, at least on a limited basis. I can't be convinced that a native would gather a variety of plants for consumption and/or medicine and completely ignore the seed value. It would take minimal observation to realize that seeds grow plants. I will say this though, personally, I like to steer clear of veggies, meat and potatoes for me. Obviously, farming wasn't required to insure survival of the species. Why bother with corn when you have a nice juicy mastodon steak hanging out down in the valley? It's likely that once meat sources declined, farming played a more important role in survival.....now that makes sense!

 

[SOHIO]

But what doesn't make sense is that if they were farming any at all then why were the clovis cultures not then sent on their way to building any type of long term settlements (wasn't farming the main precurser to the stability of civilizations)(if they started farming why didnt they grow with it)by long term I mean more than hundreds of years thus creating a civilization. Like you were saying tech advances on lithics were made yet there was always a limit how far it took them. I don't buy the don't broke don't fix it claim as clearly we as humans, today anyway, don't seem to run on that same philosophy. From what I can tell we like to explore and delve into the unknowns. Were the ancients not like this. Are we actually kinda different humans than we used to be. That could possible I would imagine. I don't know much about brain development from those times to ours, do you think that could be a part of why there was no true progressions to large scale civilizations like our own. I do however kinda agree with you on the mastadon steak vs corn theory lol but id get tired of steak everyday and look for something different. Besides our bodies are designed to need/crave/seek our vitamins ....and i really dig that avatar

 

[1320]

As I pulled out my microwaved prepared lunch a moment ago I had a thought, one pre colonial dream must have been in regard to food preservation. I imagine a native staring down at his or her hard earned fresh harvested/processed animal and saying....dang, if I had a way to preserve that meat for two weeks, I could get that corn planted.....

Kidding aside, lacking a means to preserve food for any length of time probably forced the early people to allot a disporportionate amount of time to hunting/gathering.

 

[1320]

Nothing like having a flaming avatar! Don't take these site names to the bank (Monte Verde and Cactus Hill) but two "permanent" Clovis sites do exist. Monte Verde for sure. I'm pretty sure I've read about a permanent Folsom site as well, been a while. The sites are likely all over the place but some guy digging on a hill top clearing has destroyed the evidence...LOL. By the way, there is so little Clovis material found in rock shelters...they seemed to have a dislike for them.

For what it's worth, we're still struggling to figure out how the Pryamids were built....other ancient structures as well. I'm not suggesting aliens did it but the actual proof eludes us. So, have we regressed...technolically speaking...in some regard?

I have no doubt that eventually, nearly all native theories will be rewritten but I get your point...from caves to sky scrapers....yes, I agree, our respective brains must be much different.

 

[SOHIO]

I didn't realize they made hungry girl dinners...I'll have to look for those in my grocers frozen foods section for my daughters J/K ol friend

Your definately right about the different variables that come into play when it comes to how food either slowed them down or made them progress. I guess it could be that once they were onto something, something like weather or etc. thwarted their progress but come on 10 12,000 years and they couldn't figure out how to better live from season to season. If I think how much game and resources they had to have had, it doesn't seem they should have suffered so much as history suggests for a constant food supply.

 

[SOHIO]

For what it's worth, we're still struggling to figure out how the Pryamids were built....other ancient structures as well. I'm not suggesting aliens did it but t

I am

 

[SOHIO]

The sites are likely all over the place but some guy digging on a hill top clearing has destroyed the evidence...

It was already destroyed thats my story and im sticking to it lol

 

[1320]

Just ask the Mayans about farming......

I absolutely agree with you that "history" makes us a little narrow minded on these subjects. One must clear his head of existing theories and prenotions. It probably wasn't at all like we've been programmed to believe. For instance, a few years ago, a couple of brains got together and said "This land bridge is how they made it to the America's". Hell, we have no conclusive evidence to support that idea, only theories. It's not like they dropped bread crumbs or lithics along the way. If so, they're at the bottom of the ocean. Who's to say that a portion of the Southern hemisphere wasn't frozen over? There could have been land bridges all around the America's for all we know.

And one more point....it didn't take long for Japan's tidal wave debris to make it to the West coast did it?!

 

[SOHIO]

Just ask the Mayans about farming......

I absolutely agree with you that "history" makes us a little narrow minded on these subjects. One must clear his head of existing theories and prenotions. It probably wasn't at all like we've been programmed to believe. For instance, a few years ago, a couple of brains got together and said "This land bridge is how they made it to the America's". Hell, we have no conclusive evidence to support that idea, only theories. It's not like they dropped bread crumbs or lithics along the way. If so, they're at the bottom of the ocean. Who's to say that a portion of the Southern hemisphere wasn't frozen over? There could have been land bridges all around the America's for all we know.

And one more point....it didn't take long for Japan's tidal wave debris to make it to the West coast did it?!

no it didn't ...................I mentioned this on a post before... what if we did find out everything we are missing in prehistory.....would or could it really help us in our futures like some scientists claim. There are people in this world racing if you will to find all the answers hoping that with all the answers they will better humanity in some way...most of that is probably ego driven and has made some actually think there will be an end to all our examinations into the past. Unlike some anthropologically related studies such as the human genome of course will be invaluable to mankind but how many archaeologically related topics solutions help us understand anything at all. Unless all of it leads to ET which so many ancient astronaut theorists suggest I don't see how very many topics outside of gene study could actually benifit us.

 

[SOHIO]

After all said and done and we know where we come from such as the darwin theory of evolution and we know where whomever came to be where and when, that only seems to make for an interesting read and not a propelent of our future existence. I think I should just bring home my rocks and not question them too much esp on a tues afternoon.

 

[1320]

I'm not so sure that anything we learn about ancient man is going to help our future. I for one like to know about the past, it's interesting but no more interesting than outer space.
It would be nice to know if early man had natural ways to deal with disease. With so many people on this planet, our life is one outbreak away from being over. Or a bomb or two away. The natives lasted for thousands of years, I don't think modern man will. There's just to many people anymore which equates into more ways to screw it up. If they have taught us anything, I think they've taught us how to live for thousands of years with sparse populations and good ole natural food and drink.

 

[SOHIO]

excellent

 

[SOHIO]

thats it in a nutshell your smarter than you look

 

[GatorBoy]

good read you guys

 

[SwampHunter]

For one thing I don't think it was tens of thousands of years ago. Probably more like four thousand at the most. I just don't buy into the tens of thousands of years old. Just in my lifetime I have seen the earth make some pretty drastic changes to land formations without any human interaction. In some areas of where I live you can put a brick on the ground and within a year if you don't know where that brick was put you will not find it just by looking on the surface. As well some stuff gets naturally uncovered that have been buried for hundreds upon hundreds of years. The earth changes all of the time and it doesn't take that long to do so either.
The daily lives of Indians weren't much different from what we have today. You make sure you have what you need to survive and then you do other things. That might be playing games, making music, making trinkets, getting drunk, exploring, visiting relatives in far off lands, etc. Even today there are still cultures in the world that live almost exactly like the Indians lived. Without contact from outsiders they probably wouldn't change unless something forced them to change. That could be climate, resources, population explosion, etc..... even war from neighboring tribes.
Since the beginning of time there have been explorers. It's in our nature.... people travel by any means we can. Some purposely discover new places and some do it by accident. What I mean is some people set out to see what is on the other side of the ocean and do it..... and some people want to travel along the coast to see their uncle and then end up on the other side of the ocean. In either scenerio some might or might not take up residence in the newly discovered place. Some might decide to stay put in one location and some might be nomadic. The ones that stay put will change the land to suit their needs and build more permanent structures. The nomadic people will live off of the land, travel with the wild herds and either live in shelters they find or carry their shelter with them. Both type of people will dream about other things. They will even envy what the other has. Eventually they might even turn into the other. When I was younger I was more nomadic. Now I am more established in a very small community. I also liked big cities but now hate them. The Indians weren't much different from what we are today. Instead of worrying about when the next iPhone will come out they were more worried about getting a new type of stone to work with that not everyone else had.

 

[1320]

Swamphunter, you have an interesting take on this and I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I am curious to know if you have a theory that would put the date at 4,000 years? I have often doubted carbon 14 dating as a reliable method. I would like to hear your thoughts on this if you wouldn't care to share them. I agree, Earth is ALWAYS changing.....

 

[1320]

I've often pondering the hygiene habits of natives.....how they picked and/or cleaned their teeth, how they clipped the nails, shaving, bathing, etc. I've also wondering about giving birth, that had to be a task!

 

[SwampHunter]

Why not 4000 years old or maybe a few thousand years older? I can grasp that better than billions(That's a whole lot of thousands!) of years.... which is all speculation anyway and there is no way to prove it. I don't buy into carbon 14 dating either. Just nothing there to make me think it works like some say it works.

I don't look at Indians like savages. They knew that you could scrape the green off of your teeth with stick or using fibers to floss in between. They also knew that you could use a rock to file your nails down. Most didn't have facial hair but might have known of plants that will remove hair. They also knew what plants made them smell good. Birth was no different from pioneer birth. Just because people live in the wild doesn't mean they didn't know hygiene. They lived in the wild so they knew quite a bit more than what we think they knew. These are the same people that created wonderous objects that have a lot of prople mesmerized by the craftsmanship.
P.S. I know a lot of people now days who don't use hygiene like they should.