✅ SOLVED Possible Trade Weight?

[Don in SJ]

I posted this back in 2007 for my son and could not ever consider it "solved". With SJB's recent find of a no doubt about it 16 th century "trade weight" I thought it best to repost my son's 2007 find for new opinions.

Back in the original post, trade weight was in my opinion the best answer, although a "property marker" was also suggested.

The site found at was occupied from the 1760s to about 1810, it was an old sawmill site and was abandoned around 1810. Most all artifacts and coins found at the site were 1700 era finds. So I am assuming if it was lost by those who worked or lived there it is at least late 1700s or earlier, not later.

My son never got a weight on it, my scale will not go that high and bathroom scales, not too trustworthy, but you can tell by the thickness of it that his relic seems to be in the realm of possibility of being a lead trade weight.

Thoughts? I have no idea what CP would stand for.

Don

 

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[DCMatt]

Don,

It is a bit of a long shot, but could CP stand for the "Company of Plumbers" trade association? I've seen a couple of references to American colonial chapters of the UK based Worshipful Company of Plumbers.

Just a thought...

DCMatt

 

[ticm]

I posted this back in 2007 for my son and could not ever consider it "solved". With SJB's recent find of a no doubt about it 16 th century "trade weight" I thought it best to repost my son's 2007 find for new opinions.

Back in the original post, trade weight was in my opinion the best answer, although a "property marker" was also suggested.

The site found at was occupied from the 1760s to about 1810, it was an old sawmill site and was abandoned around 1810. Most all artifacts and coins found at the site were 1700 era finds. So I am assuming if it was lost by those who worked or lived there it is at least late 1700s or earlier, not later.

My son never got a weight on it, my scale will not go that high and bathroom scales, not too trustworthy, but you can tell by the thickness of it that his relic seems to be in the realm of possibility of being a lead trade weight.

Thoughts? I have no idea what CP would stand for.

Don

Just for the hell of it I Googled it and wouldn't you know it your post here on T-Net was the first thing that came up. Oh well.

 

[Don in SJ]

Don,

It is a bit of a long shot, but could CP stand for the "Company of Plumbers" trade association? I've seen a couple of references to American colonial chapters of the UK based Worshipful Company of Plumbers.

Just a thought...

DCMatt

DCMatt, I googled as much as I could on the Worshipful Company of Plumbers and could not find anything that would indicate the use of CP , if anything I would think WCP would have been used. I still lean strongly to a Lead trade weight, and it would be nice to find out what CP could represent.

I think the suggestion of a property marker back in 2007 might have been because of the letters CP perhaps representing Corner Property? But, I think that aslo was a stretch. So I have been concentrating on seeing if CP could have any relationship with weights and measurements, but so far a dead end.

Don

 

[timekiller]

I looked some last night for you Don,& I will give you a site you may have already been through it. But I'll start you on page one of it & I've not even been through it all yet got tiered of it last night.But I think what amazes me is how many items I can find matches for.On lead objects that I knew had been used for something so did not through away.I've got several hand full of such.Anyway it's the time frames I see put on them.(very old).I know the sites I dug them from were old by us standards & is why I half way kept them also.But some leave me scatching my head.I can clearly match some of these pieces to tokens,weight,game pieces & so on.
Anyway I've seen your piece now & if I come across something I'll sure let you know.
Take Care,
Pete,

Here's the site doing a search for lead weights...........................
Search results from the database - Page: 1 - Database

 

[DCMatt]

I have serious doubts about the item being a property marker. In my experience, property markers back then were large and very often natural. I'm confident it is a trade weight.

Can you give some info on the location and the mill? PM it to me if you don't want to post it.

I know you posted about not knowing the weight, but that info would also be very telling. Take it to the post office or even your favorite deli (get some lunch while you're there) and see if someone will weigh it for you.

DCMatt

 

[DCMatt]

Officials in Britain began marking weights to attest their accuracy and
prevent dishonest dealings as early as 1579. The Worshipful Company of Founders
stamped and tested bronze and brass weights, and in 1611 the Worshipful Company
of Plumbers were granted rights under a Charter to stamp and test, iron and lead
weights. Provincial authorities in towns and cities across the country placed
verification marks on their weights, often based on the local coat of arms. In
mediaeval times wool carried a tax of one penny on every 28 pounds weight and
the tax assessor, or tronator, traveled his district carrying weights across his
horse's back. The weights bore the Royal coat of arms, and were to test the wool
merchants' scales and ensure that they were not cheating their sovereign
king.

Trying to Beat the System
Although many changes have
taken place since man first developed a system of weights and measures, one
element at least has remained constant. From time immemorial, dishonest people
have devoted their energy and imagination to cheating their customers or their
employers. In the eighteenth century when guineas and sovereigns were introduced
and manufactured in gold, unscrupulous people would often shave or clip small
quantities off the coins reducing the amount of metal by as much as 20% of its
face value. The penalty for such a practice was death. Pocket coin scales became
an essential piece of equipment whenever money changed hands, to ensure you
received the true value.

DCMatt

 

[Don in SJ]

I found my original photos taken back in March 2007, a tad clearer than the original combined shots i first posted.

Don

 

[sjb]

Sure looks like the right size/shape, but as you know, I am just learning about trade weights myself. Again, if only these could talk!

SJB

 

[timekiller]

Here's another idea I'll through out there it may be from the container it was melted in.Cause I've found lead disc just like it from old lead being melted in tin cans.But none of mine ever had letters. Food for thought.

 

[CRUSADER]

I would say Pan Weight - 100% (sometimes referred to as Trade Weights, but they are basically a Kitchen Weight that might have been used for other porposes). The CP is not a Verification mark, but probably added later for an unknown reason (although maybe it's an owner sticking his/her Initials on it, a little like the Copper Coin counterstamps).
It's not earlier than the late 18th C, & with the CP, I would say it was stamped in the early 1800s when counterstamping was more common.

 

[Don in SJ]

I would say Pan Weight - 100% (sometimes referred to as Trade Weights, but they are basically a Kitchen Weight that might have been used for other porposes). The CP is not a Verification mark, but probably added later for an unknown reason (although maybe it's an owner sticking his/her Initials on it, a little like the Copper Coin counterstamps).
It's not earlier than the late 18th C, & with the CP, I would say it was stamped in the early 1800s when counterstamping was more common.

Cru, sounds logical and good to me, Thanks.

 

[timekiller]

No doubt in my mind how I would have made them.If I had spent a little more time on the engraving part & took the time to clean my lead instead of just throughing dug lead in the can.But with a nail ,hammer,lead,can,& some heat I think you can get the idea.

 

[DCMatt]

I would say Pan Weight - 100% (sometimes referred to as Trade Weights, but they are basically a Kitchen Weight that might have been used for other porposes). The CP is not a Verification mark, but probably added later for an unknown reason (although maybe it's an owner sticking his/her Initials on it, a little like the Copper Coin counterstamps).
It's not earlier than the late 18th C, & with the CP, I would say it was stamped in the early 1800s when counterstamping was more common.

I am not familiar with "pan weights" so using Crusader's information I did a little more research. Here is a quote from the first hit I got. It refers to much older "pan weights" but it indicates the importance.
Pan Weights « The Alderney Elizabethan Wreck

[Two lead, disc-shaped, pan weights have been found, one of 1 lb, the other of 2 lbs. Both were made by the Worshipful Company of Plumbers of London and stamped with a crowned EL, the monogram of Queen Elizabeth.. The crown is of Edward I-type with alternating fleurs-de-lys and pearls across the top, and a line of pearls along the head-band. To the right of the monogram is the sword of the Archangel Michael (or St Paul according to some), also known as the Guildhall Dagger, symbolizing the City of London. Its use was first recorded in 1381, but a more fulsome mention appears in a 1488 ordinance of Henry VII: ‘Every plumber in the city to have in his house … a four pound, a two pound and a one pound weight sealed with the seal of the Guldhall’./QUOTE]

My impression is that these weights were very important in trade and would have continued to be important in post-colonial America. Without the ability to get a Royal stamp and with the lack of governmental infrastructure in the early years of the US, it is reasonable to assume that a US chapter of the Company of Plumbers stamped their own weights to make them appear more official. It just seems too coincidental to ignore.

At the very least it makes a good story...

DCMatt