PLEASE HELP! Referred by an expert as red bronze/brass?

[sarawisman]

Found while digging an old home site where there was a civil war camp in Central VA. Took it to an expert in Hanover, VA and he was stumped. I can't remember if he said it was red brass or red bronze. I buffed one corner to show the color and shine. This has been a big mystery and I would love to know what it is and if it has any value. Please help! Thank you!

 

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[sarawisman]

Probably weighs 8-10 pounds....possibly more.

 

[gunner45]

It seems to have been attached to something, maybe some sort of tool. Did you find anything near it?

 

[sarawisman]

It seems to have been attached to something, maybe some sort of tool. Did you find anything near it?

A WW1 US button, farm stuff, couple wheaties....would they use a nice bronze/brass on farm equipment? It is driving me crazy!

 

[Breezie]

Sara, I have a few question: How deep and wide are the 2 holes at the bottom? Are they threaded? In the polished area, is it more 'yellow' in color or more 'gold' in color? Is there any green patina anywhere? Rub it with your fingers, then smell of your fingers; does it have a distinctive odor? Rub a brass house key and smell; does it smell the same? Is 8-10 pounds a guess or did you weigh it; if not, can you weigh it?

It certainly looks handmade and was probably made for a specific purpose. I think the way I have it pictured may be the way it was used, and possibly 2 rods were in the holes. I've got a few ideas, but let me do some research.

Most interesting find
Breezie

 

[sarawisman]

Sara, I have a few question: How deep and wide are the 2 holes at the bottom? Are they threaded? In the polished area, is it more 'yellow' in color or more 'gold' in color? Is there any green patina anywhere? Rub it with your fingers, then smell of your fingers; does it have a distinctive odor? Rub a brass house key and smell; does it smell the same? Is 8-10 pounds a guess or did you weigh it; if not, can you weigh it? It certainly looks handmade and was probably made for a specific purpose. I think the way I have it pictured may be the way it was used, and possibly 2 rods were in the holes. I've got a few ideas, but let me do some research. Most interesting find Breezie <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=906298"/>

I don't have anything to weigh it with. It was more of an UNeducated guess- lol. The six holes are about the size of a pencil and the two larger holes are a little smaller than a dime. I'll try weighing it and post more pictures of the holes tomorrow. No threading. More of a gold color. Found about 6-8 inches deep near where my mother said there was an old buggy house. Maybe a break or foot pad?

 

[Breezie]

Since is it heavy and made out of a decorative metal, my best guess is a 'foot-leg' for a heavy piece of furniture like a piano or buffet. It looks handmade, so perhaps it was made to replace the original. The 2 holes could have been made for the wooden portion of the furniture; a way of locking it in the bracket.


Breezie

 

[gunsil]

It is not handmade, it was cast in a mold. Probably from some kind of machinery, hopefully someone will recognize it and have the true answer. The curvature makes it look like a brake shoe from a carriage or buggy.

 

[sarawisman]

Breezie- it's definitely brass!

 

[NVNutcase]

Maybe a Base for an antique door stop

 

[NHBandit]

It is not handmade, it was cast in a mold. Probably from some kind of machinery, hopefully someone will recognize it and have the true answer. The curvature makes it look like a brake shoe from a carriage or buggy.

<----- This was the first thing that popped into my head. And "brake shoes" aren't just for wheels. With large machinery any time you need to stop a drum from turning something like this could be used. Even if it rubs against the outside of the drum rather than the inside and that's how this would have to be used due to how it's constructed. Brass is soft so it might be an option when wearing out the steel "drum" isn't wanted. Take a look at the left side of this pic and you will see the "shoes" that rub on the outside of the train wheel. A Brass shoe would make perfect sense. Rivet a leather or fiber lining onto the shoe (hence the holes) to act as the actual friction surface. If the lining wears completely away due to poor maintenance or whatever the brass shoe will not create sparks when it comes in contact with the steel wheel thus reducing the possibility of a fire and reducing wear on the much more expensive wheel. Brass is often used in applications where sparks are a bad thing. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[NHBandit]

In this pic you can almost see where the indentations are around the holes from the heads of rivets. I am 90% convinced it is the backing for a brake shoe of some sort. The curvature makes me think something large. Like the wheels on a train. Any railroad activity near where you found it ?

 

[NHBandit]

Look at the brake shoe in this pic of an antique train being restored. I see Brass, how about you ?

 

[huntsman53]

It is definitely not a brake shoe as the 6 holes have no recess for the bolt or screw heads to be recessed, keeping them from contacting the wagon or buggy wheel. Otherwise, the bolt or screw heads would be worn away making the piece almost impossible to remove for replacement. It is possible that it could be a mounting bracket for a brake pad or some sort of parking brake but it appears more to me to be some sort of anchor but an anchor for what, I have no idea. I also doubt that the piece was made for a common wagon for carrying supplies or families or for field work as these were mostly constructed with wood, steel and iron. I guess it is possible that it is a part for a buggy but if so, then due to it's composition, I believe that it would have been made for a more high end buggy and not for a cheap and simple buggy.

Like others, I would like to know what it was used for and hopefully someone will post the answer!


Frank

 

[Breezie]

It is not handmade, it was cast in a mold. Probably from some kind of machinery, hopefully someone will recognize it and have the true answer. The curvature makes it look like a brake shoe from a carriage or buggy.

Evidently I was not clear when I said it looked 'handmade.' Yes, obviously it was cast in a mold, but because of its irregularities, it does not look like it was machine mass produced with efficiency. Perhaps it is misshapen from use.

Breezie

 

[NHBandit]

It is definitely not a brake shoe as the 6 holes have no recess for the bolt or screw heads to be recessed, keeping them from contacting the wagon or buggy wheel. Otherwise, the bolt or screw heads would be worn away making the piece almost impossible to remove for replacement. It is possible that it could be a mounting bracket for a brake pad or some sort of parking brake but it appears more to me to be some sort of anchor but an anchor for what, I have no idea. I also doubt that the piece was made for a common wagon for carrying supplies or families or for field work as these were mostly constructed with wood, steel and iron. I guess it is possible that it is a part for a buggy but if so, then due to it's composition, I believe that it would have been made for a more high end buggy and not for a cheap and simple buggy.

Like others, I would like to know what it was used for and hopefully someone will post the answer!


Frank

Why would the holes need to be recessed on the back side which makes contact with nothing ? Also the reinforcing "ribs" are on the backside which adds to my theory. The "front" side is smooth as if that's where the lining material would go. Brake linings have a countersunk hole so the head of the rivets are recessed. Look again at the picture I copied & pasted on post #12. It's my contention that this side is the back and I can see where the heads of rivets or bolts dug into the brass around the holes. The opposite side which would do all the work if it was intended to rub against the OUTSIDE of a wheel is smooth and is where I suspect the fiber lining once was. I can even see where it appears to be worn in spots as it would if the lining was worn completely off and it made contact with a round object (like the outside of a wheel) Are you looking at a different set of pictures than I am ? Maybe this picture will help to explain what I think we're looking at. These are brake shoes made to rub against the outside of a drum or wheel. The inner surface is where the linings are riveted on. The back side is where the rivets come through and are peened. There is no need to be concerned with how much of the rivet sticks through the back side since it dosn't come into contact with anything. Looking again at the OPs pictures I can even see where someone gouged the backside around a couple of the holes as if they used a chisel to cut the heads off the old rivets when they replaced the linings. You have to remember that in the old days even with cars when you replaced brake linings you re-used the metal backing and simply riveted on new lining material. I stand by my theory that this is the backing part of a large industrial, farm machinery, or railroad brake system but I welcome any other suggestions that make sense.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

old brake shoe...some type of machinery...perhaps small locomotive...mining type

brake shoes are two piece units...the backing, posted above, and the heat resistant material ment to be the contact surface.

 

[nhbenz]

Brake "drag shoe" for a wagon --no, scrap this idea, what I was thinking of is made of iron

 

[sarawisman]

In this pic you can almost see where the indentations are around the holes from the heads of rivets. I am 90% convinced it is the backing for a brake shoe of some sort. The curvature makes me think something large. Like the wheels on a train. Any railroad activity near where you found it ?

Yes....Ashland Train Depot is right down the road.

 

[huntsman53]

Why would the holes need to be recessed on the back side which makes contact with nothing ? Also the reinforcing "ribs" are on the backside which adds to my theory. The "front" side is smooth as if that's where the lining material would go. Brake linings have a countersunk hole so the head of the rivets are recessed. Look again at the picture I copied & pasted on post #12. It's my contention that this side is the back and I can see where the heads of rivets or bolts dug into the brass around the holes. The opposite side which would do all the work if it was intended to rub against the OUTSIDE of a wheel is smooth and is where I suspect the fiber lining once was. I can even see where it appears to be worn in spots as it would if the lining was worn completely off and it made contact with a round object (like the outside of a wheel) Are you looking at a different set of pictures than I am ? Maybe this picture will help to explain what I think we're looking at. These are brake shoes made to rub against the outside of a drum or wheel. The inner surface is where the linings are riveted on. The back side is where the rivets come through and are peened. There is no need to be concerned with how much of the rivet sticks through the back side since it dosn't come into contact with anything. Looking again at the OPs pictures I can even see where someone gouged the backside around a couple of the holes as if they used a chisel to cut the heads off the old rivets when they replaced the linings. You have to remember that in the old days even with cars when you replaced brake linings you re-used the metal backing and simply riveted on new lining material. I stand by my theory that this is the backing part of a large industrial, farm machinery, or railroad brake system but I welcome any other suggestions that make sense.

In my post, I was trying to point out the fact that the piece in question, is not a brake pad! Also, it was mainly pointed towards the use on a old time wagon or buggy since as far as I know, brake pad material had not been invented. If used on a wagon or buggy, they would have bolted a piece of wood or maybe canvas type material to the piece, of course with the chance that it was a brake pad mounting bracket for a wagon or buggy! Also, please understand that I was in the process of writing my response during the time that you made the two posts and did not have the luxury of seeing what you wrote. That being said, I believe that you may be correct that the piece was part of the braking system on a locomotive!


Frank