please help ID relics, sword guard, cross belt plate, buckle

[Lost Signal]

Hunted a new area of a large site today. In the past we've found a couple of Revolutionary War buttons, but more from the War of 1812. When we expanded our search this afternoon, I found three relics, that I would like to get some feedback on.

The oval thing is the second that we have found, and I think it's a "cross belt plate" from a War of 1812 uniform. I looked at some past threads and there seems to be some debate about similar pieces, because of the four prongs on the back. It's definitely not a furniture plate, and the prongs don't seem long enough to go through saddle leather.

The large rectangular buckle is a little over 4". I've seen some illustrations of military cross belts, that have similar buckles, and since it was found very near the oval piece, I wonder if they might have belonged together.

The object with the rectangular hole looks like a sword guard. We have dug a couple, that were a different style. I can't find one exactly like this online. Anyone have any ideas about it?

Thanks for looking.

 

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[parsonwalker]

Sure looks to me like you're on a great old site! Can't identify your sword guard, but it sure is THAT. Your rectangular buckle I would have guessed a colonial shoe buckle that "lost its curve." But I'm not a colonial guy, I'm a civil war guy. No help on your oval plate, but I agree it is probably not horse tack. So I'm not much help, but that's a promising site!

 

[roy2bears]

My guess round item is,name plate equipment 4 in. Square a picture frame

 

[Aureus]

The rectangular object looks like a shoe buckle, it has the holes where there used to be a pin. The oval item seems to be a trunk or chest ID plate, I have found the same one with officer's name on it (around 1812). Great finds! That last item sure looks like a sword guard, haven't found one yet.

 

[DetectingGodlikeOnOlympus]

The rectangular object looks like a shoe buckle, it has the holes where there used to be a pin. The oval item seems to be a trunk or chest ID plate, I have found the same one with officer's name on it (around 1812). Great finds! That last item sure looks like a sword guard, haven't found one yet.

I second all of that. Those brass plates with the little integrally cast prongs have been debated to death. The experts have said they are trunk/baggage plates for decades, and people who have found them who want them to be Revolutionary War belt plates have refused to accept that for decades.

It's a neat grouping you have there. The sword quillion is very cool.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I agree with Anton, 'shoe buckle frame' that has been straightened due to being in the ground for 200 years.
Definitely looks like a trunk or chest plate, similar to those found on Civil War cartridge boxes... but without the 'US'.

The sword guard is a great find as well,
Dave

 

[Lost Signal]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I know that relics, similar to the oval plate, have been beat to death, but I can't help it - I'm bringing it back...

You probably can't tell in the photos, but the object is slightly domed, and the back is concave. If it had been designed to be fastened to wood, the reverse would be flat. You would want the wood to support the plate. Moreover, with the prongs set in from the edge, their reach, into a rigid surface, would be shortened by the cupped shape of the oval.

The main reason that you would design something with a domed form would be to add strength, which suggests that it was not meant to be mounted to wood. So, that brings it back to leather.

When you look at illustrations of uniforms, from the War of 1812, the cross belt plates look like they might have been employed to hold the two cross belts to each other, and not buckle them in the way that a waist belt is buckled. But, I've never seen one in real life and have no idea how they are really put together.

Anyway, I'll research this obsessively for the next few days, and post what I find, if anything.

Definitely not for wood!

 

[DCMatt]

I second all of that. Those brass plates with the little integrally cast prongs have been debated to death. The experts have said they are trunk/baggage plates for decades, and people who have found them who want them to be Revolutionary War belt plates have refused to accept that for decades.

It's a neat grouping you have there. The sword quillion is very cool.

This one is French. Turn of the 19th C.

 

[Lost Signal]

View attachment 1721498

This one is French. Turn of the 19th C.

Oh yeah. I don't dispute that there is such thing as a trunk plate. I'm just saying this is not one of them. If we could see the back of the plate in this photo, I would bet that it is not concave. And, the piece that I dug is completely void of decoration. There is not even a raised rim or border.

 

[DCMatt]

I looked for your sword counter guard for a while. I didn't find a good match.

Most of them with unequal sized shells on the guard were Dutch made. Maybe a few French...

 

[Digger RJ]

Nice!!! Congrats!!!

 

[Lost Signal]

I looked for your sword counter guard for a while. I didn't find a good match.

Most of them with unequal sized shells on the guard were Dutch made. Maybe a few French...

View attachment 1721536

Thanks, DCMatt!

I looked for a while, too, but I did not get as close as you did. Our site was settled well after the French Huguenots first came to the SC Lowcountry, but it still would not be a surprise to find part of a French sword here.

 

[Hawks88]

Nice handful of saves. Congrats

 

[DCMatt]

Thanks, DCMatt!

I looked for a while, too, but I did not get as close as you did. Our site was settled well after the French Huguenots first came to the SC Lowcountry, but it still would not be a surprise to find part of a French sword here.

Dutch or French made does always mean Dutch or French used. Your guard is from a 'smallsword'. These were wildly popular with "gentlemen" around mid to late 18th C. They started as personal defense and dueling weapons, then ended up as fashion accessories. Many believe they started in France.

 

[mbcuce]

If you can figure out what the symbol on top of the sword guard you could ID it. Is it a flower?

 

[Lost Signal]

If you can figure out what the symbol on top of the sword guard you could ID it. Is it a flower?

Don't know. From one angle it looks like an animal's face. Lion?