Please help ID Civil War item?

[RingMaster44]

Found this civil war item near a old house site. Dates around the 30"s. Found some 3 ring bullets that I know are civil war but I don't know what this is. Civil war militia buckle or clasp. Please help.

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

That particular form of sheetbrass (not cast brass) plate, being a high-convex domed rectangle with four rounded corners, is a "Cadet" shoulder-belt plate, also called a crossbelt plate. It had four attachment hooks which were brazed or soldered onto the backside of its corners. It was commonly worn by Military School cadets and some Militia units from the 1840s onward, and is still used today by some Military Schools. So, it is very difficult to accurately time-date. See photo and info on page 472 of the book "American Military Belt Plates" by O'Donnell-&-Campbell.

 

[RingMaster44]

That particular form of sheetbrass (stamped, not cast brass) plate, being rectangular with a high-convex dome and four "clipped" corners, is a "Cadet" shoulder-belt plate, also called a crossbelt plate. It had four attachment hooks which were brazed or soldered onto the backside of its corners. It was commonly worn by Military School cadets and some Militia units from the 1840s onward, and is still used today by some Military Schools. So, it is very difficult to accurately time-date. See photo and info on page 472 of the book "American Military belt Plates" by O'Donnell-&-Campbell

Wow really thanks for telling me. What date do you think it is? Or can u put a date on it. It was found near the battle of atlanta so maybe civil war?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Unfortunately, that very simple plain domed sheetbrass plate, which is missing all of its attachment hooks, cannot be dated by just looking at it. (The hooks could have helped about dating it.) For excavated ones (like yours), we have to go by digsite context. You said you found it at a 1930s Atlanta house site, which complicates the dating problem. There have been several Military schools around Atlanta. So, somebody who lived in that house could have been a Military School cadet. You said you found some "3-ringer" bullets, but you didn't say specifically that they came from the house site. Even if you did, the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no .58-CALIBER 3-ringer bullets -- but that was the primary yankee bullet there, so they are almost certainly yankee bullets. But the yankees would not have been wearing a Cadet or Militia crossbelt plate in the Atlanta Campaign. Finding some Confederate bullets (or other Confederate military relics) at the house site would've added weight to the plate being a civil war era plate. But lacking any "confirming" evidence from the house site, there's no way to be sure about the plate's time-period.

 

[RingMaster44]

Unfortunately, that very simple plain domed sheetbrass plate, which is missing all of its attachment hooks, cannot be dated by just looking at it. (The hooks could have helped about dating it.) For excavated ones (like yours), we have to go by digsite context. You said you found it at a 1930s Atlanta house site, which complicates the dating problem. There have been several Military schools around Atlanta. So, somebody who lived in that house could have been a Military School cadet. You said you found some "3-ringer" bullets, but you didn't say specifically that they came from the house site. Even if you did, the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no 3-ringer bullets -- but that was the primary yankee bullet there, so they are almost certainly yankee bullets. But the yankees would not have been wearing a Cadet or Militia crossbelt plate in the Atlanta Campaign. Finding some Confederate bullets (or other Confederate military relics) at the house site would've added weight to the plate being a civil war era plate. But lacking any "confirming" evidence from the house site, there's no way to be sure about the plate's time-period.

Ok thanks, 3 ringers are only union?

 

[gsxraddict]

Ok thanks, 3 ringers are only union?

yep

In the Atlanta campaign, most confederate miniballs will have no rings, it's very rare to find a 2 ring gardner bullet, the confederate army of Tennessee didn't seem to use them much.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

"Three-ringers" are not Union-only. The Confederates manufactured many versions of 3-groove minies, all the way from 1861 through the last surrender in 1865. What I said was "the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no 3-ringer bullets" -- meaning, almost no Confederate-made 3-groove minies were supplied to the CS Army in the Atlanta Campaign. Instead, that army received mostly Enfield minies and some Gardner minies. (I was born-&-raised in Atlanta, and my first 4 years of relic-digging were in Atlanta Campaign sites, so I can testify from personal digging experience that CS-made 3-groove minies are VERY rare at Atlanta Campaign sites. In contrast, Lee's army in Virginia was issued lots of CS-made 3-groove minies. They are the most-common Confederate bullet found in the 1864-65 Richmond-to-Petersburg Siege Lines. But strangely, Joe Johnston's CS Army in Georgia (and following Sherman's march through the Carolinas) received very few CS-made 3-groove minies.

 

[RingMaster44]

"Three-ringers" are not Union-only. The Confederates manufactured many versions of 3-groove minies, all the way from 1861 through the last surrender in 1865. What I said was "the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no 3-ringer bullets" -- meaning, almost no Confederate-made 3-groove minies were supplied to the CS Army in the Atlanta Campaign. Instead, that army received mostly Enfield minies and some Gardner minies. (I was born-&-raised in Atlanta, and my first 4 years of relic-digging were in Atlanta Campaign sites, so I can testify from personal digging experience that CS-made 3-groove minies are VERY rare at Atlanta Campaign sites. In contrast, Lee's army in Virginia was issued lots of CS-made 3-groove minies. They are the most-common Confederate bullet found in the 1864-65 Richmond-to-Petersburg Siege Lines. But strangely, Joe Johnston's CS Army in Georgia (and following Sherman's march through the Carolinas) received very few CS-made 3-groove minies.

Ok thanks for the info. HH

 

[RingMaster44]

yep In the Atlanta campaign, most confederate miniballs will have no rings, it's very rare to find a 2 ring gardner bullet, the confederate army of Tennessee didn't seem to use them much.

Cool

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

I have to make an important correction. In post #4 in this discusion, I said "the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no 3-ringer bullets." I should have said "almost no .58-CALIBER 3-ringer bullets." (I've now Edited that post to fix my error.) Perhaps because it's been 35 years since I was an Atlanta Campaign digger, I forgot about the CS-made .54-caliber 3-ringer minie which is found in some quantity (not "common" but also not "rare") at Confederate positions in Atlanta Campaign sites. The local relic-diggers nicknamed it a "North Georgia CS Sharpshooter" minie, because it has a very pointed nose. But it doesn't have that name in any of the civil war bullet-books. It is shown as bullet #459 in the McKee-&-Mason book on civil war bullets.

Clues for identifying it:
1- found only in .54-caliber (its diameter typically measures about .517 to .522-inch),
2- very sharp-pointed nose,
3- extremely thick "skirt" (meaning, the rim around the base-cavity is extra-thick),
4- the base-cavity is a "deep" one,
5- base-cavity is often off-center.
See the photos below.

Those characteristics (particularly #3, 4, and 5) distinguish this CS-made .54-caliber 3-ringer from a similar US-made .54 minie which has a pointed nose.

 

[RingMaster44]

I have to make an important correction. In post #4 in this discusion, I said "the Confederates in the Atlanta Campaign had almost no 3-ringer bullets." I should have said "almost no .58-CALIBER 3-ringer bullets." (I've now Edited that post to fix my error.) Perhaps because it's been 35 years since I was an Atlanta Campaign digger, I forgot about the CS-made .54-caliber 3-ringer minie which is found in some quantity (not "common" but also not "rare") at Confederate positions in Atlanta Campaign sites. The local relic-diggers nicknamed it a "North Georgia CS Sharpshooter" minie, because it has a very pointed nose. But it doesn't have that name in any of the civil war bullet-books. It is shown as bullet #459 in the McKee-&-Mason book on civil war bullets. Clues for identifying it: 1- found only in .54-caliber (its diameter typically measures about .517 to .522-inch), 2- very sharp-pointed nose, 3- extremely thick "skirt" (meaning, the rim around the base-cavity is extra-thick), 4- the base-cavity is a "deep" one, 5- base-cavity is often off-center. See the photos below. Those characteristics (particularly #3, 4, and 5) distinguish this CS-made .54-caliber 3-ringer from a similar US-made .54 minie which has a pointed nose.

Ok I will, look at that when I get home