PLEASE HELP BUTTON AND TOKEN ID

[pike335]

HELLO, I NEED HELP IDENTIFYING THIS BUTTON AND TOKEN.
the back of the button reads FIRMIN & SONS LD LONDON, and it is copper. was wondering about origin, age and possible value.
on the token i was wondering about possible age and value if any. and history if any on both.
would never sell either, just wonder about the value, if any as to how to treat them.
thanks for your help!!

 

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[Montana Jim]

I know someone will tell you exactly what the button is... but the Firmin backmark you have is early 1900s.

Check out this link to British Backmarks: http://www.angelfire.com/wa/dianaspage/BritishButtonBackmarks.html

Having said that, I'm sure to be corrected on the date because the button has no "crown" which makes it older I think... like this pre-1840 example picture from the following site: http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/militarybuttons.htm

I hope an expert gives you some good advise on this!

 

[pike335]

any ideas about the token anyone? thanks!

 

[idahotokens]

The Beck's token from Canton, OH is not listed in the 2nd and current edition of Lipscomb's OH Merchant Tokens book, so I can't tell you anything right off. I will contact the fellow who is working on an update to the book to see if he knows of it. John in ID

 

[Daniel in Ak]

Your back mark of "Firmin & Sons Ld. is 1875....
Now here are some other backmarks for Firmin.....
1)Firmin & Son.1790's; 1823-1840
2)Firmin & Westall.1800-1811
3)Firmin & Langdale. 1812-23
Thats just a few of them out of Alberts book.Hope this helped ya out and btw nice button.

 

[pike335]

thanks all for your help!

idahotoken,
i am looking forward to hear what you come up with. thanks for your help!!

 

[pike335]

Re: PLEASE HELP TOKEN ID

hi,
i am still in need of info on this token if anyone can help.
got alot of info on the button, thanks all!

 

[Angelo]

Hi Pike!

Have you checked the following?

http://wbcc-online.com/tokens/us_tokens/ustradeo.htm

You may want to contact them. They seem to be quite versed on tokens by State.

Good Luck!

Tony

 

[idahotokens]

I'll reply both here and over at Tokens and Tags. Dale Wilges, the current OH trade token cataloguer, sent me an e-mail today saying that this token had not yet been reported to him. If you will provide the material (it looks like brass to me) and size (measured across the flats in millimeters), he will get it in the next edition of the OH book. He looked through the directories he had and the only real good possibility for dating it comes from the 1905 OH R. G. Dun business directory where the Beck Cigar Co. is listed. Of course this is not a definitive date - to do that would take some more looking through Canton city directories and/or other sources.
John in ID

 

[lonewolfe]

Both nice finds

love the navy button!

hh

lonewolfe

 

[pike335]

thanks everyone for the help, and nice comments. seems the token is quite rare then?
i am heading out the door to run some errands, will post the measurments and stuff this afternoon.

 

[idahotokens]

Don't necessarily equate rarity with value - this token is indeed probably rare, having not been "reported" to date. The second edition of Lipscomb's Ohio Merchant Tokens contains the statement "This listing contains approximately 12000 listings of tokens which to the author's estimation is only about 40% of the tokens used in the State of Ohio. Tokens that are scarce today or even unlisted in this listing are not of any greater value than the ones listed here."

John in ID

 

[AU24K]

Idaho,
I've got tons of tokens...can you supply some good sites to try to find info on my tokens?
Thanks.
Scott

 

[idahotokens]

Scott--

In a word, no. Since the study of tokens is really in its infancy, and since there are really not that many people seriously interested in tokens, most of the information about them is in scattered form and is usually on paper, not on the Internet. That is, if it is available at all. There are a few sites that have specialized information about certain types of tokens, but nowhere is all the existing knowledge pulled together. That goes for books as well. A lot of people like the Russel Rulau book, Standard Catalog of United States Tokens, but it includes only 1700-1900 and it is not at all unusual for a token from that timeframe not to be listed. Trade tokens, like the OH one in this thread, are generally not included, as are tax tokens, amusement machine tokens, bus tokens, etc.

If you can ask specific questions (maybe in a new thread unless "Please Help and Button ID" describes them) or say what type of tokens you have, I'll see what I can post.

John in ID

 

[AU24K]

Mostly I have state tax tokens, transportation tokens, arcade and car wash tokens and commemerative type tokens. I also have advertising tokens like Spiegels, Dairy Queen, Look magazine etc. I've got presidential tokens, "good for" tokens, masonic, political, bank tokens and the biggest stack is "undetermined".
It would be a good thing I guess if I was adept with the "Google" search business, but, alas, I'm a novice...
I'll keep trying, and learning. In the meantime any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
Scott

PS. Being a novice with computers is frustrating...but by golly, I could build a house or do any car repair! Guess I'm better with my hands!

 

[pike335]

Re: idahotokens token size

idahotokens,
the token measures 25 mm across. it also appears to me to be brass.
what is the name of the book it is going to be listed in?
thanks, dave

 

[idahotokens]

Dave--thanks for the details on this Canton token. I passed the info to the OH cataloguer. I don't know when he is planning on going to press - or what the final result will be named. The current OH token books are called Ohio Merchant Tokens and are by the late Gaylor Lipscomb. They show up on eBay and at used book sellers with some regularity, both the first and second editions. The IKO TAMS (Indiana - Kentucky - Ohio Token and Medal Society) group sends updates to the OH listing with its newsletters, so members have an updated catalog, but it is awkward to use since the updates can't easily be melded into the book.

Scott--you have a lot of work in front of you (depending on how detailed you want to get) to identify the variety of items you have. I know on Treasure Net alone there is quite a bit of information on tax tokens, presidential medals, etc. "Good For" trade tokens is a whole subject itself - they are usually collected by state, and you would need to consult the various state catalogs for more information. Probably 2/3 of the states have catalogs, and most are out of print and hard to find. And most of the state catalogs do not provide much more than a listing of what the token says on it. If you are looking to see details, you might have to do the detailed research yourself. Take the Beck's piece for instance. To do that research right, as a first step you would need to go through the Canton, OH city directories to find when it was in business, who the proprietor was, and what their address was. If you are lucky, the directories will have the info, but if not, then other types of directories (Dun & Bradstreet, telephone, etc.), newspapers, and other historical research is needed. There is a large percentage of "good for" tokens that are called "mavericks" - they don't have the town and state on them. These call for a different approach since first they must be located (attributed) before any other research can be done. Have fun with your items - they will provide some rainy day entertainment when you can't be out detecting!

John in ID