Plates and plates and more whatsits from old battle site

IndianRiverSonrise

IndianRiverSonrise

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Jun 16, 2007
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I am most interested in help on the little metal item with three holes on the bottom of the ruler. It is metal, very thin and slightly convex. It was found in the same area as the other items in this picture and I think is made of the same material as the half-moon shaped disc shown in the second picture, which is at least a quarter inch wider but pretty flat. Maybe the combination will help you out.

Also, ideas or information on the clay thing with hole hole also appreciated. Thanks.

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Musket balls and looks like some fine old blue china, from china 8)
RD
 

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Is it clay or a river rock. I have found rocks like that in small creeks with holes through them. I asked a geologist what caused it and he said there was a softer material in the rock and it washed away over the years.
 

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looks like a blue willow pattern --chinese made most likely 1700's to 1800's era (although the english made fine copies later around 1800 - 1850 in shaffordshire england)-- and a nice heel tap --(prevented the shoe heel from wearing down)-- Ivan
 

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lumbercamp said:
Is it clay or a river rock. I have found rocks like that in small creeks with holes through them. I asked a geologist what caused it and he said there was a softer material in the rock and it washed away over the years.
Click to expand...

My guess is clay. It was found on a small fortified island where all the other stones and rocks seemd to be of a distinctly different character. There were many of the clay items, all having a very similar hole and all having a very similar size and shape. Yet there were none that I saw made of a similar material that was of a different shape or that did not have a similar hole.
 

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the shoe taps -- first photo one is front tap --taps in front nail hole all around --the other tap in the second photo is a rear or heel tap ---look at the tap photo thats posted --see the nails -- on each side and middle of the "front tap"---- the plates shards seem to be blue willow pattern --it came from china and was very popular --however in later years the english "copied" the pattern at their kilns in shaffordshire england -- the body of the plate will help tell if it "true" china or a later " 1800---1850's era english copy" --- the 1715 fleet was known to have been carrying china that was brought overland from the west coast of panama by mule train from the minila galleons from the phillipines-- Ivan
 

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As I don't know anything about your site, this may sound ridiculous but...

They remind me of metal pieces out of "jack of plate" armor. My instinct (for what its worth) and the condition of the plates (too good to be in the ground for 100's of years) tell me otherwise...

I don't think they are shoe parts. Too thin to be taps or heel plates.

Just my thoughts...

Tell us more about the site and we'll tell you more about your finds.

DCMatt
 

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DCMatt said:
As I don't know anything about your site, this may sound ridiculous but...

They remind me of metal pieces out of "jack of plate" armor. My instinct (for what its worth) and the condition of the plates (too good to be in the ground for 100's of years) tell me otherwise...

I don't think they are shoe parts. Too thin to be taps or heel plates.

Just my thoughts...

Tell us more about the site and we'll tell you more about your finds.

DCMatt
Click to expand...

======================

The site is a smaller island protecting a bay off of an island in the Eastern or windward West Indies. It has been used by native americans from way before Europeans found the island. On the island were cannon placements that I would date from 17th and 18th century. The British and French battled there in the mid 1700s and very early 1800. I have found in close proximity, the items shown in the photos in this post, plus the buttons shown in a previous post that are from the 54th and 76th British Foot, musket balls, and grapeshot, and musket parts (hammer, flint, etc.). There are still the remains of old stone walls.

I had the feeling that the clay rectangles with holes were from the native american period, although I don't know.

I tend to agree pretty much with you on the metal plates. I felt that the metal plates, which each have three holes along one side only, were hung on something, perhaps with little rings. They do not show evidence of wear, so if they were shoe heel plates, they were hardly used. The shape, especially of the half moon shaped one, doesn't seem quite right to me for heel plates. As you point out they are also thin. The jack of plate armour idea would not be far off of what I was thinking, but I also agree that they don't look that old, although where they were found was in sand on a very steep raised island where the only water would be rain, so they wouldn't deteriorate like they might in other types of soil or salt water. I do suspect that the island, do to its postition, would have been found very early in the days of European exploraiton.
 

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OK, I'm still having trouble believing these metal thingies could be armor scales. Who was still wearing this type of armor in the date range you mention? I'm not an expert, but seems like most armor was abandoned within a few decades of the invention of the rifle.

But after poking around the internet for a while (and finding a fairly significant subculture of people who are WAY into recreating this stuff) I found several examples of scale armor plates consistant with the shape and hole pattern of the ones you found.

squam.gif


HOWEVER, these examples all seem to be at least 500 years older than the earliest possible discovery or habitation of your island.

Any chance there were reenactments done or movies made at the site?

Its a mystery...

DCMatt
 

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DCMatt said:
OK, I'm still having trouble believing these metal thingies could be armor scales. Who was still wearing this type of armor in the date range you mention? I'm not an expert, but seems like most armor was abandoned within a few decades of the invention of the rifle.

But after poking around the internet for a while (and finding a fairly significant subculture of people who are WAY into recreating this stuff) I found several examples of scale armor plates consistant with the shape and hole pattern of the ones you found.

squam.gif


HOWEVER, these examples all seem to be at least 500 years older than the earliest possible discovery or habitation of your island.

Any chance there were reenactments done or movies made at the site?

Its a mystery...

DCMatt
Click to expand...

Great research. Its interesting that there are both flat and curved plates and one of mine is flat and one slightly concave, very much like the illustration.

I followed up and came across an article in which this tupe of armour was discovered in Jamestown. Here is an excerpt discussing the Jamestown find.

"Evidence of plate armor, such as breastplates and backplates, being cut up into small squares for jacks has been found in other pits at the fort site that date to 1610 or earlier, so it's possible that the jack was made in Jamestown.... Jacks of plate were made by quilting small overlapping squares of iron between two pieces of canvas. These garments, weighing about 17 pounds, were lighter and more flexible than solid breastplates. They also allowed soldiers with firearms to rest the butts of their weapons firmly against their shoulders, which was not possible with the smooth surface of plate armor.


Bly Straube, curator, said jacks of plate were primarily used in England in the 15th and 16th centuries. In 1622, the king sent a supply of armor including jacks of plate to Jamestown. By then, the jacks were considered "obsolete" in England, but they were still considered useful to the Jamestown colonists for protection against Indian attacks."



I find the sentence regarding use of the plates so the musket could be "butted" against the shoulder interesting, especially since the plates were found within a couple of feet from some musket parts.

Also, Columbus was in the general area of my site in 1502, so the dates are possible. Nonetheless, they just don't look that old to my unexpert eye. And the island has some unbelievably beautiful scenery for movies, although the items were found interminbgled with the older items and in an area that would not be terribly likely for movies. The piece of ground where they were found was not easily accessible unless you are a bit of a stunt man.

I am getting an education from this mystery. Thanks to all.
 

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