Picked up new Atocha coin

[LM]

Just arrived today. < 300 total on ebay.
Picked up this one because it seemed pretty nice for a III, considering the aesthetic condition of other ones I've seen sell as Grade III over the years...

I've never given much thought to making sure the certificate was authentic, etc. Can you call the Fisher Museum and they'll do that for you, or how does that work?

 

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[goldcoastwayne]

PokerPlayer...your coin is listed in this database:

http://www.historicshipwrecks.com/

goldcoastwayne

 

[LM]

Cool! Never knew about that...

I found #2060, silver coin in the historic shipwrecks db...
In the DB, there's no picture, it says it hasn't been assigned a grade and "Denomination: Unknown"
Mine is assigned a grade, per the certificate and info card in the flip.
Further, the website says it was recovered in 1995, whereas the top of my little data card thing says "Atocha 1985, chest #5"

How do I interpret this data?

 

[mad4wrecks]

An 8 reale should weigh more than twice the weight of your coin...about 26 grams

 

[LM]

Hmmmm... Interesting. I wonder if this isn't a bogus example with forged paperwork?

 

[LM]

Just noticed there's some sort of faint seal on the certificate by Fishers signature, but it is barely legible...
I can make out an extremely, extremely faint impression of what looks to be "Treasure" and the 'LVORS" in 'salvors', what appears to be the date 1961 and "Florida".

If anyone knows a surefire way to determine authenticity fast, let me know.

 

[goldcoastwayne]

Hmmmm... Interesting. I wonder if this isn't a bogus example with forged paperwork?

Your paperwork says "Atocha - 1985"...you may want to search deeper on when "chest #5" was found, the bottom of the COA says 9/15/86, but the database says your coin was found 12/31/95...the weight is a big concern to me, but I don't render opinions on authenticity unless I have seen an identical coin for sale or on a counterfeit cob database.

goldcoastwayne

 

[LM]

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder. I'll call the Fisher Museum in the AM.

In examining further, there is what could be casting flash on the edge...

Here's another image of the surface without color for perspective

Here's an image of the faint seal on the certificate

 

[divewrecks]

Poker Player, Don't panic man, its real.

90% of Atocha coins are no where near correct weight (27.3g). Corrosion, abrasive errosion, and subsequent "conservation" efforts (tumble cleaning and polishing) have all but taken basic weight measurements out of the equation when it comes to Atocha coins. Specific gravity is about the only thing that will give meaning to any mass readings and most people don't know how to do that or don't have the equipment.

That is not casting flash you see on the edge, just a normal looking corroded edge. Your cert looks fine. Not bad for a Grade III. If it had weighed a little more it might have graded a II.

I have the Fisher grading criteria posted on the other cob forum I'm on: www.colonialcobs.com/forum

Nice coin, be happy with it.

Stan

 

[realeswatcher]

Re: Picked up new Atocha coin - maybe a 4R?

I saw this one on eBay... the weight piqued my interest. I do concur with DiveWrecks - I see nothing to suggest that the coin and Fisher cert aren't legit.

However (assuming that weight is correct - weigh it on a dig. scale if you can), is this perhaps a 4 Reales piece that the Fisher people mistakenly called an 8R? I've seen a few Atocha pieces where it seems likely/certain that the listed denomination is wrong based on weight vs. remaining detail, and plenty more where they missed a visible assayer, or even digits of the date. They certainly didn't spend as much time staring at each individual piece as we collectors might.

For having so much remaining detail on the shield side (plus the cross side isn't completely gone either), and not appearing to have lost any particularly large chunks around the edges, 10.5 seems way, way low (from a max. weight of about 27g). Also, from your pretty good side-view pics, the edges don't appear to have been worn razor thin like on pieces that have lost a lot of mass to sea-wear. I've seen 8R pieces with more pronounced sea-wear, like heavily sea-washed "razor" Santa Margarita and Consolacion wreck pieces, or really eaten-at Maravillas pieces, weigh considerably more.

These cobs, of course, WERE stamped with the denomination to the right of the shield... It is blobbishly visible on this piece. You can see part of the circle above traces of vertical lines... but it isn't clear enough to see whether it was the "IIII" for "4", or "VIII" for "8".

The way to check is to measure it... I've attached a pic of an about average-sized 4 Reales (slightly oblong) compared to an avg. 8R. This 4R measures approx. 31mm x 28mm; the 8R is 35mm x 36mm. How do these sizes compare to yours?

 

[LM]

Re: Picked up new Atocha coin - maybe a 4R?

The way to check is to measure it... I've attached a pic of an about average-sized 4 Reales (slightly oblong) compared to an avg. 8R. This 4R measures approx. 31mm x 28mm; the 8R is 35mm x 36mm. How do these sizes compare to yours?

Here's what we come up with.

(OOPS! Graphic says 36mm... really is 34.25'ish mm)

So, the measurements do line up.

Width:

If needed, I have a B&S Bench Mic that measures to .0001 so 'stupid accuracy' is available if we need it for width, but I can't imagine it would be, given the unique nature of many of these and the standards being pretty general.

Don't know if this is relevant, but the insert from the vinyl flip has a ship printed on the back.

 

[Michigan Badger]

The only way you'd know for sure is have a true expert check it out.

There's some non-Fisher treasure hunters finding genuine Atocha cobs even today. That ship dumped treasure over a very wide area. Much wider than most people realize. Last year I purchased an 8 reale about the same grade as yours that was found by one of these outside treasure hunters. I paid the finder $125 for it and I later resold it for about $175. The collector who bought it found it to be 100% genuine.

I say this only to point out that some of these "maverick" hunters may be selling genuine cobs with fake COAs. But I can't say for sure. Probably your whole deal is authentic. That would be my guess. There are tons of these out there. But you can bet the original buyer paid a heck of a lot more for it.

Badger

 

[LM]

But you can bet the original buyer paid a heck of a lot more for it.

Yeah, probably, but markets are fickle like that.
Most every commemorative coin issued by the US Mint eventually gets sold for much less on the secondary market, not to mention the economy is melting down and the 'collectibles' market (and, pretty much every other market) is very bargain rich for people willing to spend cash. I remembering going to a coin show in Minneapolis, MN as a kid in 86 or 87 where they featured a big Atocha exhibit, right when the whole thing was new and very hot; at that time, the coins were all four figures or more, in 1980's bucks

Looking at a house shortly that sold for $200K at the peak, now selling for $45K as a REO

 

[realeswatcher]

new Atocha coin - it is 8R, "TM-" = Ted and Leah Miguel...

The way to check is to measure it... I've attached a pic of an about average-sized 4 Reales (slightly oblong) compared to an avg. 8R. This 4R measures approx. 31mm x 28mm; the 8R is 35mm x 36mm. How do these sizes compare to yours?

Here's what we come up with.

(OOPS! Graphic says 36mm... really is 34.25'ish mm)

So, the measurements do line up.

Well, at that size it's has to be an 8R, not a 4R... I looked back at the original auction's pics... I guess the cross side does have a good amt. of sea-wear, and there is some mass loss here and there around the periphery... The authenticity is not in doubt - it's hand-signed by Leah Miguel, and all the info matches up - I'm just confused as to how the weight is that low.

As an aside, did a little searching on that certificate, which is a little different than the "85A-______" ones you normally encounter (though I'd seen similar ones before). It seems the TM code stands for "Ted Miguel", who worked with Fisher... These "TM-" coded coins represent he and wife Leah Miguel's division/share from Fisher. Leah Miguel, whose facsimile signature is on the certs., was an officer with Treasure Salvors... This would probably explain why your cert. is also hand-signed by Leah on the "Collector" line.

http://www.atocha.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_34_84&products_id=2649

The link above mentions that Ted and Leah were tasked with hand-conserving a chest of coins, with many of those pieces used for distribution to the investors. It would make sense if this chest was the "Chest #5" that all the TM- coins seem to be from.

Here's a site with a bunch of these TM- pieces for sale:
http://www.tortugatrading.com/data/...Atocha+Coins&Filter=Shipwreck+Treasure&Page=2

Note that the 2" flip insert tags are generally identical to yours - hand-written, not dot-matrix typed... One thing sort of curious... Most of these TM- certs seem to have a cut-out/glued on shield-side only pic with a black background... Yours shows a shield side-only pic, but seemingly printed right on to the COA sheet? There's one on that Tortuga site whose cert. was marked "Duplicate" (this guy apparently suffered a robbery, quite a few of his pieces are missing the certs.), and has the pic printed on to the sheet like yours, though it shows both sides, not just one:

http://www.tortugatrading.com/data/...ame=ATOCHA+1622&nbsp;+8+Reales&nbsp;+Grade+II

 

[LM]

Re: new Atocha coin - it is 8R, "TM-" = Ted and Leah Miguel...

Solid gold info realeswatcher. Thanks so much!

http://www.atocha.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_34_84&products_id=2649
The link above mentions that Ted and Leah were tasked with hand-conserving a chest of coins, with many of those pieces used for distribution to the investors. It would make sense if this chest was the "Chest #5" that all the TM- coins seem to be from.

I think I'm going to limit my future purchases to this type, whenever I see one pop up without any sort of premium attached to it. Based on what I've seen, you get a lot more coin for the money, since the actual condition seems to be a lot higher than the grade they're assigned, relative to what other grade III's look like.

I'm guessing the coins hand conserved by the Miguels were held to a higher grading standard. This one is about as nice as the II I purchased a while back for a good bit more money.

 

[divewrecks]

The only way you'd know for sure is have a true expert check it out.

Ha, I would saying they are doing a pretty dang good job checking out without any so called "experts".

There's some non-Fisher treasure hunters finding genuine Atocha cobs even today. That ship dumped treasure over a very wide area. Much wider than most people realize. Last year I purchased an 8 reale about the same grade as yours that was found by one of these outside treasure hunters. I paid the finder $125 for it and I later resold it for about $175. The collector who bought it found it to be 100% genuine.

I would be more wary about someone finding something on this "treasure trail". How did the collector find it as "100% genuine". It may be real, but could have been recovered on a wreck on the other side of the world or it could have been a land find originally. East to tumble a land find coin and make it look like a conserved sea find.

I say this only to point out that some of these "maverick" hunters may be selling genuine cobs with fake COAs.

There aren't a bunch of "maverick" hunters on the Atocha trail. It takes a lot of money to work out there. "Hand fanning" won't get it.

Great work on the research RealesWatcher and LS Morgan!

Stan

 

[fladiverdown]

If you are the interested in learning about cobs, this is where it's at. You guys are really amazing. I am into drilling down on the things in life that interest me but you guys!!

PS - Sweet Coin - good price.

 

[realeswatcher]

Re: new Atocha coin - it is 8R, "TM-" = Ted and Leah Miguel...

http://www.atocha.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_34_84&products_id=2649
The link above mentions that Ted and Leah were tasked with hand-conserving a chest of coins, with many of those pieces used for distribution to the investors. It would make sense if this chest was the "Chest #5" that all the TM- coins seem to be from.

I think I'm going to limit my future purchases to this type, whenever I see one pop up without any sort of premium attached to it. Based on what I've seen, you get a lot more coin for the money, since the actual condition seems to be a lot higher than the grade they're assigned, relative to what other grade III's look like.

I'm guessing the coins hand conserved by the Miguels were held to a higher grading standard. This one is about as nice as the II I purchased a while back for a good bit more money.

I think that in general, some semblance of "Buy The Coin, Not The Holder" has to apply to Atocha coins, as the consistency of the grades given can be somewhat scattershot. With the "usual" "85A-...." certs., sometimes you'll see pretty crummy "Grade II" pieces, sometimes really rather nice Grade III or even a pretty decent Grade IV.

As far as maybe looking for these TM- coins that were supposedly hand-cleaned as maybe better for the grade... That may or may not be true - can't judge by one coin. Your shield side has nice detail (if the whole coin was like that, the coin would likely be a high Grade II or low Grade I, I'd guess). However, that is offset somewhat by the more sea-worn cross side and the low weight... Look at a bunch compared to "regular" Atocha pieces, then compare... What might be a fair assumption, however, is that these TM- coded pieces might have more numismatically attractive appearances. The cleaning on your piece seems to have left a fairly nice patina in place, as opposed to the usual polish job most Atocha pieces got.

 

[divewrecks]

Re: new Atocha coin - it is 8R, "TM-" = Ted and Leah Miguel...

I don't even pay much attention to the grades printed on Atocha certs. In my opinion they are tourist guidelines, not a collector level grading system. I have seen Grade I coins that by my estimate were barely Grade II. Similarly, Grade II coins that would qualify in the upper percentile of the Grade I population.

Keep in mind the thousands and thousands of Atocha coins recovered and the similar quantity still out there. Do you have any idea how many I'm talking about? The estimate is about 250,000 coins. These coins are plentiful for god's sake, not the great rarity they are often portrayed as. That is why they relegate them to tumble cleaning - with that volume they simply can't conserve them in a manner that is most gentle to preserving the coins features. Then each coin has to be photograpphd and graded. I'm sure does not get the attention one might think either. There just isn't time to sit there and study coin features in detail.

So don't worry about the grading, unless you are buying only to resell. Write your own analysis of the coin and why a particular grade is applicable. Buy underated coins and build documented case as to why they are better than advertised.

Stan

 

[LM]

I totally agree Stan, and not just for shipwreck coins; that sentiment applies to numismatics in general.
Obviously, slabbed coins provide that level of grade-fungibility required for impersonal mediums like eBay or the old Teletrade, but for raw coins, there's definitely bargains to be had for people with a keen eye for grading standards. The four tier system used for Atocha coins is not nearly comprehensive enough and leaves quality gaps that seems to be exploitable (or, conversely, that burns people who rely blindly on Fisher grading)

Heck, personally speaking, I'm batting about .700 as far as PCGS/NGC/ANACS resubmissions that ultimately receive a higher grade. Whenever I go to a coin show, it never ceases to amaze me how many people I see making significant purchases of slabbed coins without even bothering to loupe them and make any sort of examination on their own.

Raw coins? Shooting fish in a barrel with some sellers who tend to rely too heavily on things like Photograde, etc that just don't translate into real world appeal... My first and only 1909 S-VDB Lincoln Cent was purchased as a raw VG (and at a bargain price even at that grade) and ultimately slabbed out as a VF .