PI detector news - Alexandre Tartar

[Rick K]

This guy spent 10 years or so studying and modifying PI detectors - mostly Eric Foster machines. A couple of years ago I came across some posts on the Geotech forum about a new PI detector called the Manta, developed by this Alexandre - who is a physicist and electronics developer (with a good day job!). I sort of filed the info away as the project seemed likely not to be developed into a marketable machine.

Fast forward to the end of last week. I had called someone at First Texas to ask a few questions about the AmeriTek program. The conversation got around to when FT would deliver on their much rumored new technology. Of course, I got nothing concrete - I didn't expect that.

Imagine my surprise when - as he started talking about the strength of their engineering team - he mentioned that they had recently hired Alexandre Tartar! Wow.

That tells me a lot. We have all wondered when FT would bring out PI detectors, maybe that day just got closer?

Here's a link to his linkdin page - where it says "Physician" - I think he means "Physicist" - the French word is "Physicien".

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tartar-alexandre-b7131b99/

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Rick Kempf

 

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[Terry Soloman]

With all due respect to you Rick, for me this is a big yawn. There is a reason the Eric Foster machines never really caught on with the majority of beach and water hunters, and if this designer is good, great, but a new PI doesn't thrill me, nor should it thrill anyone else.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

As Terry alludes to: Any pulse machine that tries to get an ability to differentiate iron, will come with drawbacks. By the time you implement any tricks to do so, you're no longer at the "fabled depths" of the pulse machine anymore. You're essentially at about what standard discriminators are at. Hence .... why bother ? Why not just use a standard machine ?

They are just two different beasts. The pulse has it's place in the arsenals of md'ing (nuggets and beach or whatever). But you will never be able to marry a two of the "best of both worlds".

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

Tom, youre probably right, but anytime a company is trying to get around a known problem (like loss of depth with the barest of discrimination), I get a little excited. MAYBE if they throw enough expertise and money at it, they can come up with something revolutionary. 'bout time this hobby got a good shakeup instead of another incremental step (not that constantly improving bit by bit is bad).

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

With all due respect to you Rick, for me this is a big yawn. There is a reason the Eric Foster machines never really caught on with the majority of beach and water hunters, and if this designer is good, great, but a new PI doesn't thrill me, nor should it thrill anyone else.

Only PI I would consider is one that has genuine discrimination. Right now I can use my excal like a PI by using large DD coils and hunting in reverse discrimination (all metal) then switch to desc when I get target to see if it nulls (iron) in 2 different directions, I hit targets over 24 inch this way at the beaches....

 

[Rick K]

Good and thoughtful comments - and, as comments on the current state of PI detectors, I must agree.

Having said that, I think that Carl Moreland, the head of engineering at First Texas - who was director of engineering at Whites when the TDI was introduced - is pretty well aware of the state of the art and the drawbacks of current PI technology.

It seems interesting to me that, knowing what he does, he took the responsibility of convincing FT to make this (for them) pretty major commitment. Time will tell whether the investment pays off. Here's what Carl had to say about it on another forum.

"Yes, we've hired Alexandre. Yes, we are working on PI. I was personally working on PI before hiring Alexandre, but now we are seriouslyworking on PI.

Sorry, cain't say much more about that, and cain't offer up any ETA's, mostly cause I don't know myself."

 

[OBN]

Only PI I would consider is one that has genuine discrimination. Right now I can use my excal like a PI by using large DD coils and hunting in reverse discrimination (all metal) then switch to desc when I get target to see if it nulls (iron) in 2 different directions, I hit targets over 24 inch this way at the beaches....

A very hard combo to match and by far the best there is right now..reverse disc with the Excal or CZ's

 

[Rick K]

Another solid comment. The "job to be done" is always the ultimate test for a tool. Any new PI machine for the beach will have to "do the job" better than existing tools - and the consensus is clearly that no existing PI qualifies.

Here's a link to a Google translation of Alexandre's page about his "evolution"

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4kCFdZrzI4kdXU1aTQzdjBqNUk

Just for fun however,

Here's a video purporting to show increased depth with a prototype PI by Alexandre compared to a Soverign XS2. It's in French but the last shot is the summary.

conclusive of anything - of course not, but there is always hope that real progress can be made. Maybe this time!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vLKWRr4wg

here's the last chart

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4kCFdZrzI4kNGZ1V1ZoNXZnOWM

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....- and the consensus is clearly that no existing PI qualifies...

Rick, regarding your video links, etc... : There is no doubt that pulse machines can be made that far-&-away exceed the depth of conventional discriminators. But the devil is always in the details: To avail oneself of the awesome depths (like in your last pix capture comparison), he will have to "hear the bells of notre dame" ring on every little Birdshot, staple, etc.... In other words: If someone gets glossy eyed thinking they're going to go to junky parks and angle for 17" deep mercs, they are going to be in for a big surprise.

And to the extent they can fiddle with the controls and somehow have iron reject, they might find it only works for the top 5" or so. Or if they fiddle with it for ability to tell iron vs highs vs lows, they may find they've lost all that fabled depth.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Postscript edit: Seeing as how this *is* the 'beach" section of T'net, it's probable that readers here are ... doh .. beach hunters. Hence perhaps discrimination (for iron, or to tell highs from lows) is not an issue. But if it's true they don't need any sort of disc, then ..... heck, what's to stop them from right now simply going and getting a high powered minelab nugget pulse for the beach ? Those puppies can get a nickel to nearly 2 ft. deep !

 

[Rick K]

All good points.

time will tell if a product ever emerges from this effort - and if it does, whether it changes the game in any way.

Still, it's nice to see a major manufacturer acknowledging that they are going to take a shot at it.

Good discussion!

one thing - having dug deep washers and bolts, ferrous discrimination at full detection depth would be kind of wonderful. Maybe somebody will actually crack that nut - maybe them, maybe not. Nice to see a new effort.

 

[dewcon4414]

I think the answer to your question about whats stopping them .......... its the price of one of those ML gold PIs. We cringe at the CTX price knowing its going to pay for its self. Carl had tried to get Whites to produce a version of his TDI. He had mentioned as well that he had a working PI with disc...... i cant remember why but he didnt think it practical. Any machine that processes a signal looses depth over a see and beep PI. Most of us also realize....... there is a lot of berried junk out there and the need to reduce some of that with disc. Even good targets become recognized as iron at a certain depth. Also...... most of the time here in Fl if its deep because of sanded conditions...... then its to deep for a PI as well. We all have our level of what we are willing to pass up. Some grid a smaller area with a PI, others let small targets go, some like to cover more beach with a disc machine, and some likes a TID screen to pass up targets they BELIEVE isnt gold. BUT come on..... who wouldnt buy a reasonably price disc PI with a few more inches just to have? I can tell you i would for water hunting some beaches in the winter here. It may not be practical for most of the country..... but for FL the rules change somewhat. The Aqua Sound is a good example.... single freq 14Khz.... basically a Nautilus in a box.