Past few weeks CW finds, brass ram rod end? Toasted Copper?

[flyinryan2]

Here are a few CW finds from three different places two different spots in Winchester, and our Boyce location. I found the Colt pistol bullet at our lot one morning, that makes only my second of this type of bullet i've found. I found the two 3 ringers behind one of our customers house in Winchester, they both looked fired so that's pretty cool. The button, toasted copper and ram rod end was found at our Boyce location. The copper is the same size as a Half cent but i cant make any thing out on it. It almost looks like there may be writing on one side so maybe its a token of some kind. The ram rod end is just a little bit smaller in diameter then a .58 caliber Minnie and fits perfect on the top. But i have never found one before so if it is not a ram rod end then please correct me. Thanks for looking and HH!

 

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[flyinryan2]

I was looking at CW era ramrods and mine doesn't really look like any that i could find, so it may not really be a ramrod. But i'm sure somebody can chime in on it?

 

[BuckleBoy]

I don't think it's a ramrod end, but rather a pipe flange or similar. I have dug but one ramrod end in 20 years, and it's solid. Yours is hollow. Perhaps someone else will weigh in on the verdict.

Great lead finds, and yes, I think toasted copper. Diameter of the copper and weight will help ID.

Cheers,


Buckles

 

[BosnMate]

Don't assume it's NOT a ramrod end, it very well could be. Ramrod ends are usually pinned to the wood ramrod so they won't pull off down inside the barrel. Ramrods tips have to be hollow to fit on the end of the wood ramrod, but most are not hollow all the way through, but that doesn't mean none of them were. There are a lot of modern reproductions of muzzleloader guns and parts. I'm not saying you found a repo, what I am saying is don't trust something as being used back then just because there is a modern repo the the item. There are flared brass ramrod tips on old guns, usually on big bored muskets or shotguns, the reason being they are pushing wads down the bore and they don't want it to turn sideways on them. There are also flared tips for rifles, and I include some pictures to help explain. This photo shows a flared ramrod on a large bored original musket. The next photo is also on an original, and it shows how they were pinned on. The next photo shows flared tip on a rifle with the rib cut out to accommodate it. This is also on an original. finally there are a couple of modern repo's. The top one was probably being sold to be used on a short starter. There will be people that will argue that there were no short starters in the old days. Short starters start the ball down the bore a few inches, then the ramrod takes it all the way down on top of the powder. The following is the only example of an original short starter I've ever seen.

Rifle Ball Starter and Powder Measure
"A wood starter was used to seat the patched round ball evenly into the muzzle of the rifle. Then the riflemen used his ramrod to push the ball down the barrel prior to firing. This starter includes an attached powder measure.
Horn, rawhide, wood. L 10.1 cm
The George C. Neumann Collection, Valley Forge National Historical Park, VAFO 1311"

So apparently there was at least one. For more on short starters, you could Google "muzzleloader short starters." Anyhow, your find could be a ramrod or short starter tip. I'd feel better about it if there was a pin hole through the sides. It could also be a ramrod pipe. But I see no way for it to be pinned to the wood.

 

[flyinryan2]

I don't think it's a ramrod end, but rather a pipe flange or similar. I have dug but one ramrod end in 20 years, and it's solid. Yours is hollow. Perhaps someone else will weigh in on the verdict.

Great lead finds, and yes, I think toasted copper. Diameter of the copper and weight will help ID.

Cheers,


Buckles

Thanks, yea the copper is to far gone to get any kind of ID on it. Its the same diameter as a half cent, but that's all i got.

 

[flyinryan2]

Don't assume it's NOT a ramrod end, it very well could be. Ramrod ends are usually pinned to the wood ramrod so they won't pull off down inside the barrel. Ramrods tips have to be hollow to fit on the end of the wood ramrod, but most are not hollow all the way through, but that doesn't mean none of them were. There are a lot of modern reproductions of muzzleloader guns and parts. I'm not saying you found a repo, what I am saying is don't trust something as being used back then just because there is a modern repo the the item. There are flared brass ramrod tips on old guns, usually on big bored muskets or shotguns, the reason being they are pushing wads down the bore and they don't want it to turn sideways on them. There are also flared tips for rifles, and I include some pictures to help explain. View attachment 704325 This photo shows a flared ramrod on a large bored original musket. The next photo is also on an original, and it shows how they were pinned on. View attachment 704327 The next photo shows flared tip on a rifle with the rib cut out to accommodate it. This is also on an original. View attachment 704328 finally there are a couple of modern repo's. View attachment 704329The top one was probably being sold to be used on a short starter. There will be people that will argue that there were no short starters in the old days. Short starters start the ball down the bore a few inches, then the ramrod takes it all the way down on top of the powder. The following is the only example of an original short starter I've ever seen. View attachment 704330

Rifle Ball Starter and Powder Measure
"A wood starter was used to seat the patched round ball evenly into the muzzle of the rifle. Then the riflemen used his ramrod to push the ball down the barrel prior to firing. This starter includes an attached powder measure.
Horn, rawhide, wood. L 10.1 cm
The George C. Neumann Collection, Valley Forge National Historical Park, VAFO 1311"

So apparently there was at least one. For more on short starters, you could Google "muzzleloader short starters." Anyhow, your find could be a ramrod or short starter tip. I'd feel better about it if there was a pin hole through the sides. It could also be a ramrod pipe. But I see no way for it to be pinned to the wood.

Wow, thanks Bosnmate!!! That's some awesome research! There is no hole for it to attach to the wood, but the smaller end is clamped inward so that would hold it to a piece of wood? Thanks for all the info!!

 

[matt092079]

Good finds. It sucks when coppers come out toasted because there is no telling what it could have been. Browns is a place that will give and give I feel.

 

[flyinryan2]

Good finds. It sucks when coppers come out toasted because there is no telling what it could have been. Browns is a place that will give and give I feel.

Yea just gotta find that right spot!!!