Olive jar or native Indian pot.

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Any experts care to give an opinion on whether this pottery shard is from an olive jar or Indian artifact. One of my buddies pulled this from the Halifax Harbour last weekend.
ZDD

 

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[Zodiacdiverdave]

Now come on guys, I know some of you can offer an expert opinion on this jug. Our local museum has identified similar finds as native Indian but I don't agree with this. We just don't get too much Spanish stuff around here to have a local expert. Perhaps it is from the Basque, we did have some of these guys in this area in the 15 and 1600s.
ZDD

 

[ColonialDude]

Doesn't appear Native American to me....or Native Canadian hah Looks to be older than 1500 and not from these parts.

Hmmm. Zodiac..."Living the Dream"...you must be military, or ex military.

 

[makewave]

Curious is that an animal at the bottom? not an expert but seen some shards like that with cow at the bottom...

 

[stevemc]

Yes it does appear to be early European, Mediteranian style olive jar.

 

[williamsingr]

NAtives were not know to work with pottery in fact bowls were carved out of knots in trees becasue the knot of a tree would not spit due to shrinking and expanding, considering where you found it I would guess Roman

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Doesn't appear Native American to me....or Native Canadian hah Looks to be older than 1500 and not from these parts.

Hmmm. Zodiac..."Living the Dream"...you must be military, or ex military.

You got it, 33 years and counting. Now in the reserves I have more time to pursue my hobbies. But for the next little while my wife and I are taking care of my grandson while my daughter is in boot camp and during here trade training.
ZDD

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Curious is that an animal at the bottom? not an expert but seen some shards like that with cow at the bottom...

No, the bottom marks are just from the erosion of the clay. I was wondering if anyone knows if the British or French carried such jugs on board their ships or was it only Mediterranean countries?
We would try to find more info around here but our pursuit of history is not welcome with our museums and they have in the past tried to prevent bottle and artifact diving in our waters.
I thought that Alexander or OSSY from Australia might be able to pipe up and provide their opinion as well.
ZDD

 

[ScubaFinder]

Dave, nice find! To get closer to a positive ID, could you provide some measurements so we can get an idea of the size. Also, is the clay tan colored all the way through, or is it black or dark grey in the middle? Would love to see a picture of the other side too.

Jason

 

[signumops]

Without seeing the scale of the thing, you could say that it is a type B Spanish jar, but the shoulders are too low on the curve. Normally, Spanish jars have higher shoulders on the throw. Type B has that type of neck and throat, and some have been dated to early 1500s, but were also found on the Atocha (1622). Hard to say without looking at the other side and the scale.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Hi guys, the jar is around 8 in. at it's widest X 14in. tall. the opening is 2.5 in. and the rim of the opening is .5 inches making the OD 3.5 inches. The inside is finished in olive green almost.
If this is a Basque jar then this would be the first evidance that the Basque actually did come into Halifax at one time.

 

[signumops]

I don't necessarily know about Basque jugs, but the Spanish types were widely used for many centuries and could have easily found their way onto any number of ships of various nationalities. Furthermore, the types as identified by western hemisphere wrecks were not consistent by date. I have attached a photo of a type A that was found on the Urca de Lima which sank in 1715, but, the same rim design (type A) has been found on earlier wrecks (1550 or there abouts) in the Bahamas and elsewhere in the Caribbean.

You may have a specimen from an entirely separate culture all together. The only references I have on hand deal with Spanish pottery and Spanish wrecks.

What I don't see very evident are the surfaces commercially produced that typically exhibit the hand form of the fingers as the pottery was being laid in strands, so obvious in most Spanish 'olive' jars.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Thank you very much for your expert opinion, it is highly valued. You guys in Florida see allot more of these then we do. Unfortunately this specimen is badly worn and the fingermarks, if they were there are not visible now. This is not the first one our group has found and I hope not the last. My guess is that this jar was deposited here from a French ship sometime between 1600 and 1749. I dont think that we will be able to narrow it down any closer then this unless someone can provide more advise about this style of olive jar.
Thanks again Signumops for your help.
ZDD

 

[Alexandre]

It does look like a Portuguese olive jar. More photos would help id it.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

It does look like a Portuguese olive jar. More photos would help id it.

You may be right there Alexander we did have Portuguese explorers Verazzano and Gomez were here in the 1500s, there is a cove at the mouth of Halifax Harbour named after them, Portuguese Cove.
There are "Finger Marks" on the outside of the jar but they are well worn. This jar has been in the water for a very long time.
Thanks for your help,
ZDD

 

[AUVnav]

Concur, can you place a scale next to the artefact and re-submit the image?

I believe olive jars were glazed on the inside, is there evidence of glazing?
(it may be one of those mouse jars!)

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

Concur, can you place a scale next to the artefact and re-submit the image?

I believe olive jars were glazed on the inside, is there evidence of glazing?
(it may be one of those mouse jars!)

I can get a scale next to it. The guy who found this is moving and everything is packed up right now. The jar is pictured a few post up with keys next to it and the dimensions are there as well.
There does appear to have some glaze on the inside.
ZDD

 

[signumops]

Much better photos. Definitely hand laid spirals. I'd say that is a pretty significant find, and my hat's off to the finder! You all should go back there and see what else you can dig up... and then show us the pictures!
Definitely the rim identifies it as a type B, but there is a good possibility that the bottom was completely fluted to a point, rather than a flat bottom. We find those here in Florida on VERY rare occasions. Still, not absolutely a fact that it is Spanish in origin. Looked like the inner surface had glazing from what I could see in your original post.
Bobadilla lives in DR and they have a pretty significant collection of olive jars there: maybe he can tell you something about it.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Thanks for the additional pictures and scale Dave! Very nice indeed, I don't know what I could add as Terry has already provided the details I could glean from the new photos. It looks Spanish to me, it also looks very old. Literally just a feeling I get when looking at it, but I would put that particular jar in the early to mid 1500's.

Just for grins, here is a picture of a portion of the Dominican Republic's collection. Simply amazing.

 

[whydahdiver]

Zodiac: get a copy of " Pottery from Spanish Shipwrecks 1500-1800" by Mitchell W. Marken. U of Florida press, 1994. Amazon probably has it. Verrazzano was Italian and explored Narragansett Bay right outside my office in 1524.