✅ SOLVED OLD WEST BALL ROUND AND ?

[DIGITMAN]

I dug the ball and the casing buy Texas point...A hydrolic minning area in so. cal. IS it a Ball round ? and what does the H mean on the casing,are they old west ?

 

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[creskol]

The casing looks like a 44 cal. Flat Rimfire Winchester.

 

[DCMatt]

Creskol is right on. .44 Henry cartridge.

DCMatt

 

[creskol]

Creskol is right on. .44 Henry cartridge.

DCMatt

This is what I was thinking .. The H doesn't look like the Henry headstamp.

 

[DCMatt]

I see the difference now. Winchester cartridge.

DCMatt

 

[GpSnoopy]

I agree that it is a Winchester cartridge. I don't think it's a .44 Flat either, as that was another round that could be fired in the Henry, and if you look at the box, it states it was for the Model 1866, which was the improved version of the Henry rifle, and also used the unique double firing pin. Winchester used the "H" headstamp (in honor of Henry Tyler) for almost 100 years on a variety of rimfire cartridges.

We need the diameter and length of the cartridge.

 

[BosnMate]

The single strike round firing pin should also give us a clue as to the gun used. CannonBallGuy might be able to give us an answer. The round ball needs better measurements. If the cartridge is .44 caliber, then the ball might be .36, and could possibly be an 1851 cap and ball Colt pistol bullet, which looks to be dropped, I see no indication of being fired.

 

[CC Hunter]

The size reference of the measurement rule, which appears to be in inches, shows the round ball to be very near 1/2" which would then likely be .50 caliber, a common size for muzzle-loading rifles during the 19th Century.

Looking at the size reference for the brass rim-fire casing in relation to the measurement, we may note the base as well as the cylinder sides that appear to maintain a uniform circumference to the lip (important to note, as some cartridges are tapered down to accept a smaller bullet), the casing diameter appears to exceed 1/2" at all points, thereby excluding a .44 caliber size. From what I am seeing, this may in fact be a .52 cal. or larger casing. To have an exact identification, the precise length of the casing, and diameter of the mouth of the casing is needed.

CC Hunter

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

CC Hunter is correct, going by the ruler, the casing appears to be at least a .50-caliber (and possibly .52 or .56) -- and the lead ball is smaller than that.

Please use a Digital Caliper to measure the diameter of the casing's "tube" and its flat base, and also the diameter of the lead ball.

Meanwhile, lacking those measurements, my guess is that the ball is an unfired .44 Revolver ball (probably Colt), and the casing is an 1880-to-1927 Winchester-manufactured Spencer casing (possibly a .56-50 or .56-52). International Ammunition Association {iaaforum.org} - View topic - Spencer Headstamps

That being said, the firing-pin mark on the casing is an important clue. That mark is an unusual shape... a deep WIDE round one. I once knew which specific rifle made that distinctive mark, but I can longer remember it.

I should mention that according to a US National Park Service arecheology report about Custer Battlefield bullets, cartridges, and casings, Spencer cartridges would fit into (and could be fired by) several different 1870s rifles... the Joslyn, the Ballard, and Spencer rifles. Go to the following .pdf document of the Custer Battlefield report, and scroll down to the photo and data on page 48. http://www.nps.gov/mwac/publications/pdf/tech94b.pdf

 

[CC Hunter]

TheCannonballGuy is right on track as usual, and precise measurements with a Digital Caliper will provide the best answer for true diameter size (caliber). To my eye, the outer edges of the round ball appear to line up right at 1/2" on the measuring rule (the curvature of the ball shape, and angle on the photo can fool the eye though). Also, by my recollection, a .50 caliber rifle/musket ball is actually a bit undersize of true .50 inch?

CC Hunter

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Yes, the ball for a .50-caliber muzzleloading musket/rifle (such as a Hawken) is a bit smaller (.47 to .48") than the bore's .50" diameter ...and the ball for a .44 revolver (such as Colt) is a bit larger (about .46") than its bore's .44" diameter.

Folks, that is why super-precise measurement (in hundredths-of-an-inch) of this ball's diameter is crucially needed for certainty in identifying it. And of course, also needed for accurately identifying the bullet-casing. Although .02-inch (two one-hundredths of an inch) seems really small to most people, it makes a BIG difference in identifying bullets accurately.

 

[DIGITMAN]

Man that is some good info from all you guys !! I will get better measurements on casing and ball round.I have a second ball round,which looks like first one,i found in same area. to measure all i have is that ruler...sorry..I will post better pix.

 

[huntsman53]

The .44 Henry casing had a rim diameter of .518 of an inch and the casing appears to be close to that! Also, as far as I know, Henry never made anything in rimfire bigger than a .44 Rimfire but I could be wrong!


Frank

 

[CC Hunter]

The .44 Henry casing had a rim diameter of .518 of an inch and the casing appears to be close to that! Also, as far as I know, Henry never made anything in rimfire bigger than a .44 Rimfire but I could be wrong!


Frank

The empty brass rim-fire cartridge casing shown here, is definitely NOT a .44 caliber for a Henry rifle. The Henry rifle employed a small flat slot shaped set of double firing pins, rather than a single round pin as seen above. Also, the configuration of the cartridge firing chamber on Henry rifles, produces a unique raised bulge on the head of all fired casings. Winchester used the "H" headstamp on a vast number cartridges for many years, ranging from little .22 caliber rounds, on up through the huge .58 caliber and more.

CC Hunter

 

[CC Hunter]

The following post shows a Henry Rifle casing, and it is clearly smaller (under 1/2") compared to the measurement rule. Also note the double firing pin and distinctive head bulge.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/339532-need-ammo-expert-help.html

 

[huntsman53]

The empty brass rim-fire cartridge casing shown here, is definitely NOT a .44 caliber for a Henry rifle. The Henry rifle employed a small flat slot shaped set of double firing pins, rather than a single round pin as seen above. Also, the configuration of the cartridge firing chamber on Henry rifles, produces a unique raised bulge on the head of all fired casings. Winchester used the "H" headstamp on a vast number cartridges for many years, ranging from little .22 caliber rounds, on up through the huge .58 caliber and more.

CC Hunter

Thanks! I am not that up to speed on Rimfire Cartridges but need to be!


Frank

 

[DIGITMAN]

Hello Everybody...OK on the casing it measured...1 and 1/32nd of an inch OR 26mm. the Top across at 13mm. and bottom Rim at 16mm. THE Ball rounds both measure at 16mm..this is the most exact i can get with the ruler in the new pictures. Hope it helps.

 

[DIGITMAN]

Sorry Guys i clicked to soon..Here are the pictures..

 

[huntsman53]

Hello Everybody...OK on the casing it measured...1 and 1/32nd of an inch OR 26mm. the Top across at 13mm. and bottom Rim at 16mm. THE Ball rounds both measure at 16mm..this is the most exact i can get with the ruler in the new pictures. Hope it helps.

That equates to a .50 caliber!


Frank

 

[DIGITMAN]

Frank thats a big slug ! for what a bear ? are the ball rounds of an earlier pistal ? the area got shut down in 1880s for bad ground water and a shooting.