Old Cabinet from 1714 - HELP

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castelnaud

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Hello, I am the new owner of the piece below, I bought it from the owner who now lives in Calgary via Berlin. He inherited it from his aunt, and there is a family story attached to it (he wrote me three pages of provenance). However, the story only officially picks up in the 1900s; I've still got two centuries to work backwards. The vendor and I doubt that it is German (although his relatives come from there). Also, although it has the date "1714" painted on its front, it "feels" older than that. The door inserts are obviously new (1930s?), they appear to have been cut with a bandsaw.

So, I'm hoping that someone has seen something like this somewhere or can throw me a bone on ideas as to where it is from.


Shot with NIKON D80 at 2007-08-11


Shot with NIKON D80 at 2007-08-11


Shot with NIKON D80 at 2007-08-11
 

Who ever made it spent a lot of time doing it,
This doesn't look American, more likely Euopean.
If not German I would guess French.

That is as good as I can do with what you posted.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

OD
 

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I haven't a clue about it, but it sure is lovely. And the carved bits do look plenty old. Otherwise, all I know is to check the drawers, are the corners dovetailed - like that.

You might check out where and when the next Antiques Roadshow bunch is going to be near you.

good luck,
Nan
 

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It's a beautiful piece! Be sure to NOT refinish it until it has been looked at by an expert appraiser. It certainly looks old and 1/2 the value of old furniture is in the original finish. Gentle cleaning would be all that's needed. Check with some local antique stores and auction houses to find out who would be able to look at it for you. You should be able to find someone who will do it for a reasonable fee. A person who really knows antique furniture will be able to pin down a time period for you. Have you found any manufacturers marks of writing on it other that the initials & date?
 

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I agree with you, doesn'y look Queen Anne period (1714). A lot later I would say, if the provenance is that detailed maybe it was made just before the provenance started.
 

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Thanks everyone - your comments are greatly appreciated!

Here's the first part of the provenance document:

"The cabinet was built in 1714 for an ancestor of my family. The style of the cabinet has been identified as Dutch or north-western German. Its original location was Sandelermöns, near Wittmund, in eastern Frisia, on the north sea coast in Germany. Nearest bigger cities are Emden and Wilhelmshaven; Bremen is about 150 km to the
east, the Netherlands are less than 50 km west. The initials of the first owner are painted on the crest: A. J."

Apparently, prior to leaving Germany, he had it examined and the appraiser did not disagree with the above statement.
 

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First of all....DO NOT REFINISH IT.....many times, that will DECREASE the value, especially of very old furniture pieces.

Secondly, I don't know if you live in the states or abroad....if in the states, trying contacting the following (this is the link to the submit page)....

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/about/submit.html

Submit your story to them and hopefully they will pick up your story. With you have a letter showing the possible history of this piece, that is a bonus to you.

Also, I wonder if A.J. is not the person who made the piece. I have heard of the person who made it, their initials or first initial and last name or just their last name being on the piece, but never the person it was built for....but there's a first for everything.

Also...have you looked under very nook and cranny....under neath... for any kind of markings whatsoever?

Very nice piece, I might add.....but please, don't do any work to it until you get more info....I hate to see the value of your piece go down....get it appraised before and if you do it or have someone else do it...get it appraised again.

Let us know...
Annmarie
 

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Dear Friends - this is such good information, thanks very much.

I am definitely not going to refinish it, but am just going to start with a light cleaning, and the stabilization of some pieces that are getting shaky (i.e. one of the legs on the base is cracked on the inside). I am definitely big on patina, but I have heard that the way to deal with pieces like this is beeswax and carnauba. I don't plan on doing anything until I know more, for sure, but your advice is appreciated.

I've just paid for some online research to be done on it.

PS: Excellent note on the initials, but I guess it depends on customs of the time. Someone has told me that the initials would only be put on pieces that belonged to royalty/nobility.
 

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Just looking at it, I would say german, early 1900's. If there are no nails in it and it is tounge and grove construction all together, perhaps older, but it just does not look the date on it.
DG
 

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dg39 said:
Just looking at it, I would say german, early 1900's. If there are no nails in it and it is tounge and grove construction all together, perhaps older, but it just does not look the date on it.
DG

Glad you agree.
 

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Could this piece be from the Georgian Era? Here's a link on vintage furniture:

http://www.studiosoft.it/AntiqueEnglishFurniture.htm

Here's another link that may interest you:

http://www.collectingnetwork.com/furnitureguide.htm
http://www.bushwood.co.uk/furniture/furniture-story.html

Here's a link for a glossary on furniture:

http://www.newel.com/Glossary.aspx

Another link that may be of interest:

http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/cr_artists/article/0,1789,HGTV_3228_1384479,00.html

Just some links I thought you might be interested in reviewing....
Annmarie
 

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castelnaud said:
...but am just going to start with a light cleaning, and the stabilization of some pieces that are getting shaky (i.e. one of the legs on the base is cracked on the inside). I am definitely big on patina, but I have heard that the way to deal with pieces like this is beeswax and carnauba...

One of three things here. The piece is really 1714. The date was put on there because it had some significance to the owner and/or maker and it's not nearly that old. Or, you got hosed bro. It shouldn't matter anyway because the piece is still antique and probably worth some good scratch. I wouldn't even go so far as to be cleaning or using beeswax or carnauba on the thing until you figure out exactly what it is, and then have it restored by a pro. Its the only way its going to retain the value is if it is done right. If you go mucking with it you could hurt its value. Go with a pro, but only after you find out exactly what it is.
 

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Don't touch it with wax or anything else until a respected appraiser tells you more information.

Could have been made in 1978 and made to look old. Provenance could be faked too.

Here's hoping it is 18th century and worth a bundle! :)
 

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Take a look at the dovetailing . Zig zag with uneven joints is hand sawn. If its rounded or each is exactly even, then its machine made

Look at the veneer....Veneer has been used a long time and the older Veneer is thicker and glued on

Look for a makers mark or signature somewhere on the bottom or inside a drawer.

You have a beautiful piece and could possibley be Italian
 

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Hello all - interesting responses!

I don't really see this piece as being faked - the carving is too intricate, and the pedigree is too complete. Although I have never had anything like this before, I have had lots of antiques (most Canadiana), my parents were nuts about them and that has given me somewhat of a "divvy" sense on antiques. Plus, I knew the former owner personally for a couple of years before I bought this, and I really didn't pay a whole lot for it. His whole house (small) is filled with antiques that he brought over from Germany when a big company moved him to Canada so his relocation costs were covered. It's definitely old, but it could certainly be a "zipper" piece (made up of two different pieces), and the door inserts are not originals, but so what? It's definitely nice to look at and has a real presence in a room. It's going into my highrise office downtown, and believe me, it will make the room.

I submitted it for an online consultation through a U.K. Antiques Roadshow expert that offers information for a few bucks. She came back with a few pages, including the following paragraph which I found to be quite interesting:

"Based on the information and images provided, this appears to be a Louis XIV style (William and Mary style in England ) Marot period piece with Roco influence. Double curve cross stretchers and hardware as shown in your photos are typical of the time. Walnut and Oak were widely used for furniture. Locking drawers (many of which required the key to be used as a pull) were prevalent and kept silverware safe. This period saw a general sobering of furniture styles, due to the staid influences of William's Dutch background. His great craftsman Daniel Marot, a Huguenot refugee, interpreted Louis XIV fashions in a quieter Dutch idiom. The Louis XIV style spread through England, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and English colonies in America after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1598 forced Huguenot protestant craftsmen to emigrate to avoid religious persecution. With the patronage of Huguenot artists by William III and Mary II in England, Louis XIV has a strong influence on the William and Mary style. Near the end of Louis XIV's reign, a lighter and simpler regency style became more popular."

:P

HOWEVER, I do agree with the many who have wondered why someone would put such a prominent date on the front of it. I say this just because I have never really seen any furniture pieces (even in museums and chateaus in Europe) that have dates on the front of them. It is possible that this was some kind of a "jubilee" or anniversary date that otherwise had significance. I think that much lies in the initials - A.J., based on demographics, would likely stand for "Anton Janssen" (about as common as John Smith in Germany). However, and back to my previous point, the only initials I could possibly imagine someone putting on the front of a piece of furniture would be initials of royalty or nobility.

Anyway, thanks for the information and I hope the discussion continues!
 

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Thanks for sharing Castelnaud,

I didn't think I was that far off.
Furniture is my profession.
Period furniture is my favorite.

OD
 

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castelnaud........Appears you have the identification now. I love the feel and look of those old wood pieces! Happy for you ! ;D

I just got on this thread tonight. I know this is passe, but I'm surprised none of the members suggested you look at our T'Net "Antiques & Collectibles" forum.....might have been some help there !

Enjoy it !

Todd
 

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I have seen episodes of "Antiques Roadshow" where someone got an online appraisal but the appraiser never looked at the piece in person. Turns out the piece wasn't what the online appraiser thought.

A good respected certified appraiser has to take a look in person.


Certainly the online appraiser could be correct but that doesn't guarantee anything, including the value of the piece.

You have a historical direction to go in now for your research but please don't assume anything until someone sees it in person.

I don't want you to get ripped off if you piece is valuable.
 

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Tricia said:
I have seen episodes of "Antiques Roadshow" where someone got an online appraisal but the appraiser never looked at the piece in person. Turns out the piece wasn't what the online appraiser thought.

A good respected certified appraiser has to take a look in person.


Certainly the online appraiser could be correct but that doesn't guarantee anything, including the value of the piece.

You have a historical direction to go in now for your research but please don't assume anything until someone sees it in person.

I don't want you to get ripped off if you piece is valuable.

Agreed.

Also the appraiser statement has the dates wrong. William & Mary are 1690s not 1598. Should read 1698??
 

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The cabinet was featured on the local news here last Friday, I am getting a copy of the video (highly compressed, of course) that I will post here (or provide a link to).
 

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