New Finds Reveal Clarification - Great Day Hunting!

[bmartin0693]

You guys are some knuckleheads. Lol! I didn't post a topic saying "Artifact or Not?" The topic said that I was finding unusual artifacts and that's when it all started. I am the type of person that works harder when given stress. I'm glad I had today off work to go surface digging, b/c I ended up finding something rare and some more old tools. So here it is, an early archaic Kirk made of black rhyolite. The same material as a Hardaway I found on the same land but a different spot. I found this about 20 yards away from a field. I used a piece of broken quartz to scrape the ground. I'm not the regular artifact hunter, searching plowed fields. It does yield more artifacts though, but I prefer to try different techniques to mix things up a bit. I'm speculating that these fresher pieces were left in a field in a position where they didn't make it to the bottom of the hill. There is pine woods there now. Along with that, I found a Middle Archaic, Straight Base Morrow Mtn made of speckled rhyolite a year or two back, even further up the hill, on the other side of the field. All the other forms of speckled rhyolite I have found here are deformed and show no lithics, but I'm sure it was a piece of something at one time. I went back down to the creek also. I found these two very old artifacts up against the bank where I've been finding others for the last few days. One looks like a knife and the other is an unknown tool. These don't have obvious lithics that the Kirk does so I am well aware of that. Also, check out those single, side-notched forms on the ground. Does Mother Nature make shapes like handles all the time? I'm not 100% sure b/c I'm not an expert, but some looks intentionally formed with a purpose. The patinated pieces looks like wasted leftovers of some tools/utensils. I'm not sure what the material is but they feel like pottery. These finds are just a piece of the whole story about the Archaic inhabitants of this land. You can take this in anyway you want, I'll just let this misunderstanding slide for now. I'm peaceful in nature. I proved yall wrong and that's the end of this chapter.

 

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[bmartin0693]

More recent pics.

 

[GatorBoy]

Nice find.
The others ...I'm sorry are not any more an artifact because there are artifacts in the area.
It's not the shape that tell this... it's evidence of flaking on the "lithic".
It could be a shape none of us have ever seen before but our experience in seeing the evidence left behind by the knapping process on a wide variety of lithic material would tell us if it was man made or not.
There is ALOT of years of experience in this forum.
Nobody is trying to prove you wrong about anything ... just offering you some of their experience for your benefit if you so choose to take advantage of it.
With that.... good luck and Happy Hunting.

 

[bmartin0693]

I know that the flaking styles are very evident most of the time. However, I think it's possible to find artifacts, that shows no evidence b/c they have been under such pressures and they degrade into another form. You can still see that it has the apparent edge a tool would have. I do believe these are Archaic or maybe even Late Paleo forms but the signature is very lightly written by the maker. I have well enough experience in this subject to know that much.

 

[eastTNJoe]

This is very interesting..I live in TN and have just started hunting this year...is the material available in NC that different from what I find? Seems like NC has it extra hard. It also seems that you feel confident in your artifacts that because of the material and age, they don't have that crisp look lots of other finds do. I'm sure this is frustrating because it takes more careful observation and awareness. I could see how many of the above pictured items resemble blades/points...I can also see how those experts that weigh in end up suggesting that many of them are just natural...either way, it is fun to hunt, critique and wonder...because really none of us knows for certain about these things that man manipulated hundreds and thousands of years ago. Isn't that what makes this fun?!

 

[bmartin0693]

That is well said Mr. TN Joe. That's why I'm having fun too. I don't always keep something flat and pointed unless I see a signature of alteration. Then that proposes the theory of what created this to make it the shape and hold the form that I am seeing today. It does make me wonder here since I did find that black rhyolite Kirk up the hill from there. Some tools were probably used once and just left laying there at that spot. Therefore, the better quality materials were valued more and they are rare for that reason. I made a very significant discovery today to make these experts heads spin. No doubt inhabitants lived here. I know where there is a 40 foot tall cliff face, rock shelter right down the creek from there. I can't hunt it though b/c its on the neighboring land.

 

[Hippy]

I hunt a site that was an old shore line of the Illinois River. We have found hundreds of artifacts there from early archaic through middle woodland. There are also thousands of great pieces of diorite that would have made some great axes and bannerstones. However, they were just rocks!!!! Many times natives made their camps where rocks were. It doesn't mean that every associated rock found near an artifact is, by default, an artifact.

You can probably call them diamonds if you like, but besides the nice point you found, the rest are just rocks.

Hippy

 

[bmartin0693]

I'm not picking up every one you silly Hippy! I decide which ones have the characteristics of weapons and tools. Some I even tried piecing back together to see if I can get them to look like a whole piece. None of the pieces fit perfect, some not fitting to anything at all. It sounds like yall are telling me that the natural processes creates artifact-looking stones for fun at that one spot, in and out of the creek. That is cool b/c I like knowing the geological past and since I found the Kirk today, a story is unfolding. Therefore, I'm not set on this land just yet. There's blades and materials all over the place. I will probably find something else that will please your hurting eyes another time. It will still have the signature of true age artifacts from NC. You all should know what I'm really trying to find. The well known Clovis, which is not of the ballpark here. I've yet to find one and I'm not going to be picky about it. The landowners have never hunted the land for arrowheads. The people that owns this land has the last name "Stone." From what I learned about this area, these stones were the way of life. Everyday working tools and implements I have found here. Not your typical material, that is apparent to me but they have unnatural signatures in my opinion. Heck, ole Gator Boy posted a pic yesterday of something that looks like a naturally tumbled stone to me. That stone looks like it should be thrown in the same category as my finds, according to the theories here. Sorry GB but I had to throw that 2 cents in this matter as well. I will never give up. This has been a passion since I found my first Yadkin point in a pile of sand about 20 years ago. I didn't know what it was until years later. I did drop it a lot, lol. I'm just in the prime right now and when I think it's significant, I know it is. So what if there is no significance in these materials? I don't mind hearing a few peoples opinions cuz I might learn something. I'm not talking about you in particular but some people may need to keep it closed and listen their selves and observe the images. I have no animosity here, all I've said has been with good intentions. I'm taking up for my finds, yet trying to learn more about this subject. Not everything will be gold, so you can decide for yourself from what pictures I have given so far.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I know that the flaking styles are very evident most of the time. However, I think it's possible to find artifacts, that shows no evidence b/c they have been under such pressures and they degrade into another form. You can still see that it has the apparent edge a tool would have. I do believe these are Archaic or maybe even Late Paleo forms but the signature is very lightly written by the maker. I have well enough experience in this subject to know that much.

I think you need to do some research and see that just because something is older doesn't mean it will lose it flaking or degrade into another form. About the only thing that will cause an artifact to do that is being in water for thousands of years or being polished by the blowing sands and that almost always only happens in the desert regions. You have one very nice looking Point you found and no one is denying that. Everything else in your pictures is just natural stones. If you wish to continue believing that they are artifacts then more power to you. Go ahead and continue to bring home "rocks" and the rest of us will continue to find artifacts.

Good day sir. I am done with this since you obviously don't want to listen to any of our advice. There is a lot of experienced people here trying to help you and you refuse to listen. I have collected for 48 years and I wouldn't even bend over and pick up what you are bringing home and calling artifacts.

 

[Brandiwine]

Hello B!

After reading the post I thought I'd offer my opinion on this thread and your pieces. You know what they say about opinions...and I have one too dde0e.

I don't think anyone that has posted on any of your threads meant to be argumentative or condescending. They are simply posting their opinions of what you've posted. I've only been a member here for a few months and in that short time I've learned more from those guys than most books, online searches, etc. At first I was skeptical of who these online "strangers" are and what actual experience and knowledge they have. That skepticism was gone once I took the time to look through the threads of those regular posters, their finds, their observations and even more so the conversational threads between these experts. I'm not one to believe everything I see, so when someone posts something I'm inexperienced about, I research the subject, the artifact, etc. For example, the bar amulet posted recently with the great story of finding the two pieces years apart. I'd never heard of that type of amulet. So I researched, found they're in the same category as bird stones. Interesting read, learned a lot, but then I dig deeper...where have they been found, in what context and then I guess the different purposes as no one truly knows their purpose. I search google images for examples and so on.

If you take the time to research the folks who post here and other forums on the subject (I think it's funny everyone is so addicted to this pastime that almost everyone here are regulars on other sites too...we just can't get enough) you'll find your conversing with some of the most experienced collectors and experts in the field.

Go back and look at the years of information on this site and others. You'll find that they all mean well and many have learned their rocks are just that...rocks. Some take the opinions as an insult because its so easy to misread someone's intentions on the Internet. It's impossible to convey emotion in a forum, email, etc. Some like me realize those rocks are probably rocks. But I'm still new enough to keep some of those rocks because the shadow of doubt is there. I imagine you stop collecting everything after you run out of room for the rocks...and some of these guys have 20-40 years of experience. I've also researched artifact shows, conventions, etc....these same guys are there with people coming far and wide to show their pieces and get opinions from these guys. They're not just strangers and the majority of these guys are true experts on the subject.

In short you can learn a lot from these folks...but insulting and being argumentative won't help you get further advice. Sure, sometimes someone will be wrong with their opinion of your finds. But they're human and no one is perfect. Keep in mind no one is holding the piece in question, and looking at pics...us newbies are also not good at taking pics (you can even learn a lot about what angles, lighting, etc work the best when showing finds).

Keep the ones you believe to be "something". I do. Others here like NC Field hunter have an amazing collection but still have a shadow of doubt and put them aside for later. There's no harm in that. But currently there is no archeology evidence or documented proof that what you have were manipulated by man. Despite your belief there aren't great artifacts in your area, other members here have posted proof you're mistaken. Look at the posts from your area and you'll see some great examples. Study the type of flints, cherts and crystalline material found most in your area and learn to spot the material. Quartz is a very common material found in your area and wow...some of what I've seen from nc are amazing!

I'm not being mean or trying to spark a argument. I promise...that's not how this hillbilly rolls. I was new here, still am. At first I thought some folks were rude in their short "it's a rock" posts. But after getting to "know" them better by researching them I found a different story. They are here to converse and share with their peers and some are more helpful with us newbies....but how much fun is it to post something this long (sorry I know I'm going on and on here) about why they think its a rock and then review posts to ensure they're not coming across rude because so many don't want to hear its just a rock. Once you research and see how many of us post rocks you'll realize no one would help us if they had to take this kind of time to help. I know I'm too busy to do it so I can't expect them to.

If you can keep an open mind, take some posts with a grain of salt and have sense enough to question everything, research yourself and realize that can learn a lot this site than by all means stick around. I promise no one comes here to argue, intentionally be negative, etc. We all love this pastime, love sharing it, love learning and are happy to find so many others who share our passion. Archeology is a constantly changing field, history has been rewritten so many times and will continue to be rewritten as we find new evidence over time. Take clovis first vs. pre clovis for example...we are in the midst of a split that could rewrite it in our lifetime.

Anyhow....some of us have to work so I better get my long winded arse off here and get to it.
Have a great day! Nice to "meet ya" and I look forward to watching you "grow up" here with me....lots to learn man...lots to learn.

Yours truly,
Brandiwine-O

 

[bmartin0693]

I know I stumbled across something that must not usually occur. Any of these considered to be artifacts? Very similar forms but different material. What would yall speculate on these?

 

[rock]

Not all artifacts were made perfect I have to agree. I find many that I have to stop and say to myself why would they have even tried to use this type of rock for anything. I have seen where some people believe it was children learning how to make tools. If you had some prized material and you were teaching your kids to make tools you wouldnt want them to have the best, you would give them something else to learn with. That way if they made a mistake it wouldnt matter. You have to look at all aspects. I am not saying either way on your finds. I know mother nature can make some cool rocks.

 

[bmartin0693]

Rare material is rare for a reason. I don't think these ancient people wanted to ruin there pretty pieces of rhyolite, so they made make-do scalpels with a secondary material. They made them to be used once and thrown them away. I figured I'll throw that lil observation in too b/c that's what the people 'round here's sayin'. I definitely could be wrong if I ever show these to an expert, he may tell me a whole different story. Still this hillside is producing a few nice arrowheads and some very unusual rocks along with that. I know what's unusual and what's not is for the area, I've very native to this one region of NC. I've posted a fake on a forum a few years back and every knucklehead there said real. I knew it was fake and I wanted to see how well they made their observations. They failed that test with flying colors. So I don't believe in experts or opinions necessarily.

 

[bmartin0693]

Mother Nature's making 'em shaped like tools here in this part of the backwoods. Along with a single piece of valued black rhyolite. The inhabitants lived here without a doubt and that's what I'm seeing with these rocks. Their everyday living essentials, Mother Nature supplies them here. What a blessing NC geological time have must been.

 

[GatorBoy]

What you don't seem to get is your showing to several experts now..and frankly disrespecting them by tossing aside their help in order to inject your much less experienced and educated assumptions... on a very well documented assemblage and history of your area... you will have little help from the best like that.. good luck. "Knucklehead"

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

experts?

 

[GatorBoy]

experts?

Only thinking of two who have posted on this thread adds up to 75 years experience.
So... yes.
This is going nowhere I can see.
Mabey we should all just leave every artifact where it is and call a cultural preservation officer as you have suggested in previous comments.
I'm curios how high on the experience list you rank to feel the need to post that question.
Besides the one point they are just rocks.

 

[IlliniGuy]

Rare material is rare for a reason. I don't think these ancient people wanted to ruin there pretty pieces of rhyolite, so they made make-do scalpels with a secondary material. They made them to be used once and thrown them away. I figured I'll throw that lil observation in too b/c that's what the people 'round here's sayin'. I definitely could be wrong if I ever show these to an expert, he may tell me a whole different story. Still this hillside is producing a few nice arrowheads and some very unusual rocks along with that. I know what's unusual and what's not is for the area, I've very native to this one region of NC. I've posted a fake on a forum a few years back and every knucklehead there said real. I knew it was fake and I wanted to see how well they made their observations. They failed that test with flying colors. So I don't believe in experts or opinions necessarily.

I am a member and adviser on that "Other Forum" and bragging about posting a known fake got you banned over there!

 

[bmartin0693]

"Some pieces were designed with intentions to scare or even possibly kill their brethren." One wise person said here. When I believe there is an unusual occurrence, then there is. Esp. when the perfect piece of black rhyolite shows up. If I had any sense back then I wouldn't ruin my valued piece of rhyolite. That's when the occurrence of secondary materials can be observed to see what was their limitation. Ah! Ha! Pretty lil piece of black rhyolite of course. What a beautiful story these rocks portray. Others may be close-minded on this subject matter, however, the change over time is inevitable, just as war is. You can read this or take it in anyway you like, but yall don't need to be rock Pharisees. I will going back to surface dig for more soon. I collected a few other random rock specimens of the area as well and I have them prepared for analysis. I have left the rest of what is the normal occurrence laying, I only pick up unusual occurrences. Some are very intriguing specimens to collect even for a rock collector. I found one just laying on top of the leaves in the middle of the woods. That was strange enough seeing a flat black rock laying on top of leaves. It looks like a hand broke the specimen off underground and brought it to the surface for everyone to see. I'm freaking serious lol. That is so weird. I have had a freaking blast dating this hot, brown-haired, tan babe and finding arrowheads/artifacts behind her house. You all are jest jealous! I know it!

 

[GatorBoy]

I am a member and adviser on that "Other Forum" and bragging about posting a known fake got you banned over there!

Thank you for making that known
It says alot about who we are speaking with.
I had alot to say about that comment but couldn't figure out acceptable language.
Must not be as "high" on life as bmartin.