Need research help..

[RELICDUDE07]

Need research help..

Some of you may have seen this in my spanish cob. post.I found this lock plate very close to the coin..I would love to find out just how old this maybe,and could it have stored more coins....Like the size of the box...So far i have found the letters TvT on the back...I just found it 2 days ago,and would love to find out more info on this piece,spanish or british anything would help.Thanks relicdude

 

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[dkw]

Re: Need research help..

I can't offer you any help but the TvT looks like an M in the pictures.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

It may but in person the v sticks up past the t s and does not touch the letters.......

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

if it is indeed a stylized form of "M" know that a capital letter "M" with a tiny "o" in the "V" of the" M"was the mark for "the mexico city mint" --its the "mint mark" for the mexico city mint on spanish coins --- --

looking at it I think its possible that its a mexico city made chest lock plate --- thus with the stylized capital letter "M" and because of its general overall spanish type design styling of the lock plate --I'd say theres very strong chance it came from mexico city -- maybe it was from the mint maybe not - I guessing somewhere about1780 to 1830 roughly using the other items you found at the wrecksite as time frame items (the much older coin being out of time frame with the rest of things in general) --- Ivan

hope that info helps.

of course any lock box could have coins in it --and valuibles of the day were kept under lock and key back then onboard ships -- it might have been a smaller sized chest for the ships payroll or the capts private funds /jewel box ---or the box of a wealthy person travelling on board the vessel ---the one thing you do know was that some one on the vessel had something worth enought to put under locjk and key and that the metal remains of the chest and what ever it containned is most likely near by where found the lock plate at. --- good luck --

ps ---on the front of the lock plate the flor de lis design type element was used by spanish royalty* most think of it as french but it was heavily used by the spanish after the bloodline of the spain kings kind of petered out and "family" kin from the blood line of the "borboun" french came into power in spain .--- Ivan

 

[Chagy]

Re: Need research help..

Dude,

I have tried looking at colonial furniture maker markings with "TvT" "IvI" and "M" I have not been able to find anything yet...

Maybe my good friend PBK can give us a hand here!!!!

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Thanks guys,This thing has my blood pumping I love to treasure hunt, im going to start diggin all iron targets too at the site, im going to pound it and pick out all the pieces .......

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

personally I think your on to at least a small sized spanish chest of sorts -- say a money or jewel box or ships payroll box --- mexico city made due to the stylized "M" symbol on the back and the spanish flor de lis type styling on the front of the lock plate , --- also the other item with the bump on it appears to me to look like a lock hole cover plate for a larger sized type chest -- it dangled hanging over the key hole via a rivet thru the hole in it being attached to the chest --to put the key in you slid it to the side exposing the key hole -- it was to keep dust dirt and debris out of the lock works to stop them form getting gummed up. ---so theres at least one small chest and excellant possibly at least two of them (one small / one bigger) -- and who knows maybe more . the type of buttons and the english plare shards point to about 1800 to 1823 ish time frame wreck --- yes indeed I'd pound that spot to death --- Ivan

the geen edged plate patten is similar too the english one one on the left hand side --years of manufature 1800 to 1850 --peak popular time frame 1813 to 1834 -- median time frame is thought of as 1823 *

http://virtual.parkland.edu/lstelle1/len/archguide/images/ceramic/FPWSHELLEDGEBUDGREEN1.jpg

 

[Chagy]

Re: Need research help..

With such an interesting site, you most dig everything. Remember artifacts talk for them selves and are a very important part of the research.

In one of my trips to DR while having drinks with Burt Webber at the Nicolas De Ovando hotel he was telling me the story of how he got really confused while salvaging the "Concepcion" See the "Concepcion" wrecked in 1641 an he statred finding bottles from 1670s or 80s I cant remeber the exact date. Burt's head was spining how could this be posible....further research showed that William Phips had also salvaged the "Concepcion" a few years after it wrecked and they threw the bottles over board......

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Thats why i save all the pieces around here so many different things....Indian ,spanish,french , british but i can tell what looks old now,and i bring it home....Im going today with some friends and we are going where no others would want to go looking for treasure,in the swamps/ black mud

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

pottery shards and buttons are often great daters and can help with nationality too -- also the styling of items and marking can tip off stuff --the flor de lis design for exsample. --- non gold or silver artifacts can often tell you the information you seek to know about the vessel. ---time frame when it sank , nationality of the vessel type of vessel (gen cargo or treasure vessel?)

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Thanks ivan and chagy,this is what i have found at the site so far....

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Can anyone tell how old this stuff is? spanish or english made

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

look at the designs used on it --the new orleans saints style --- flur de lis--( mostly thought of as a "french" design") was commonly used by spanish folks on spanish made things after the spanish crown was taken over by the bourbon line out of france.--- the stylized capital letter "M" on the first lockplate is very similar to the "M" mint mark used by the mexico city mint.---based on the over all styling I say spanish * taken in context with the other items found there --english and spanish both* -- I say the wreck site might have been a english trade ship early 1800 to say 1830 ish time frame packing spanish made chest upon her --or else a spanish vessel with english goods and people upon her --- with that many lock plates ---there * has to be TREASURE about her somewhere -- ( unless she was carrying a cargo of empty chest) --- this is my best guess -- Ivan

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Ivan ,do you think the mexico city mint made their own boxes/chest ?Im going to search for that some.. This stuff was found on land ,so they could have brought some chest to hide in the area.. Would this kinda stuff be on everyday furniture from that time frame?Should be alot of coins/bars around somewhere close

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

those are 3 old early 1800 time frame style faceplates for lockible chest --where valuibles might be kept under lock and key by upper crust type people while travelling aboard ship (to prevent theift ) and the last item is a key hole cover for larger more heavy duty type chest or treasure chest --it hung down over the key hole to keep debris out of the lockworks -- the hole at the top of the "cover" was were it was mated to the chest at --- to use the lock --it was pushed aside and the key inserted into the lock hole and turned.

with 4 differant lockplate chest parts around I say theres a good chance for booty near by.

its very possible that the mexico city mint might have made boxes or chest for use in shipment of money -- someone had to made em --either the mint or locals ( which one did it I 'm not sure of frankly but it would not surprize me if the mint did it for security reasons --- the keying so no one could make a copy of the keys)--- I just noticed the greatly similar styling of the "M" and the fact that the mexico city mint mark was also a "M" of roughly similar styling --that along with the overall spanish styling of the lockplate items --- Ivan

 

[The.Boomer]

Re: Need research help..

I'm thinking English colonial. You may have already found your treasure, when you find out what the reproduction people are willing to pay for originals, especially in this good of condition. I like to dream you found the hiding place of some long hiddin Spanish treasure. But without context that would certainly be a leap of faith. Much more likely the place where a Gentleman English colonialists luggage and furniture fell off the wagon while a driver was going too fast trying to keep a scheduled time.

http://www.whitechapel-ltd.com/Merc...reen=PROD&Category_Code=besc&Product_Count=44

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Thanks boomer,i think your right on the english hardware.... Do you know what the M is for on the 1st lock?I think it could be some chest stashed in the area.Me and my friends have found alot of spanish coins in the area,no english coins . What would they pay for lock stuff like this?I found this stuff in a place called pirates cove....

 

[The.Boomer]

Re: Need research help..

I'm no expert. I just did a little research like you asked. The M I would think is a makers mark. But that said it could have been anybody. Since these things were quite often hand made, unless the maker gained some sort of notoriety via design or production, you may never know. The coins may have or may have not been part of the contents. Am I right in assuming your in the Delta or at least the south. Spanish coinage was predominate currancy even during the colonial era in the south. Of course this is all to the best of my understanding which can be and often is flawed, just ask my wife. BTW I dont think it was a trunk or any such peice of furniture. More likely something with a flater surface such as a desk. Trunks were used for travel and as such they were quite often packed in the open and were subject to the elements, thus the curved tops to shed snow and rain. Also the curved tops served the same purpose aboard ships etc... The smaller key hole was from a clock, pretty sure on that one.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Need research help..

Thanks for your help, im going to email that company with some pics...

 

[ivan salis]

Re: Need research help..

humm the english plate shown above -- has me now leaning towards english ship --together with the english items found -- starting to think english "lumber trade vessel" during the illegal slave trade and embargo days or shortly afterwards -- say 1803 to 1821 (when america took over florida)