Need ID help with 3 more dug wine bottle seals

[Bill D. (VA)]

First I wanted to again give a big thanks to Crusader's friend Kev for ID'ing that awesome seal I recently posted as being related to the ancestry of Robert E. Lee. Doesn't get any better than that. I've also been trying to ID some other seals that my friend Stan and I dug recently, and hope that Kev or some of the other knowledgeable posters here can help out. First is that very cool seal I previously posted depicting what looks like a dragon. That has to be a coat of arms for some prominent Virginia family back in the late 1600s to early 1700s. This seal was dug in the same pit as the Sir Henry Chichely seal, and they're both shown together below along with another pic of just the dragon seal by itself. The next 2 pics show another unknown coat of arms next to another Chichely seal, plus one of the unknown seal by itself. It has a slight similarity to the Lee seal, but they're definitely not the same. The last one we need an ID on is the one with the monogram "IM" or "JM". It was found a couple weeks ago in the same pit as a very small Robert "King" Carter seal. And lastly I'm just throwing out another pic of 2 awesome seals I dug last year in this same spot that are dated 1713 and 1719 in case some of you haven't seen those. Don't forget that you can click on the thumbnails to enlarge the pics for better detail. Anyway, I'd appreciate any help with the IDs of the 3 unknown seals. Thanks in advance for your help.

Whoops - looks like the last 2 pics were loaded in reverse order.

 

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[surf]

Hey Bill,

I'd point you towards the College of William & Mary on Robert Carter. He was Virginia gentry in a big way in the years surrounding the 1713 date. You've been digging with the swells.

"Robert "King" Carter (1663-1732) was a colonial official and great landholder (300,000 acres). His sons were Robert Carter (1704-1731) and Landon Carter (1710-1778) of "Sabine Hall." Grandsons of Robert Carter included Robert "Councillor" Carter (1728-1804) of "Nomini" and Robert Wormeley Carter (1734-1797)." Inventory of the Carter Family Papers 1667-1862 Carter Family Mss. 39.1 C24

"Robert "King" Carter of Corotoman (1663-1732)
Born: 1663 Corotoman Plantation, Rappahannock River
Robert "King" Carter
Died: August 4, 1732 Corotoman plantation
Buried: Christ Church Yard

Marriages:
Judith Armistead of Hesse, Gloucester County--Married 1688. Died 1699. Mother of five children


Betty Landon (widow Willis)--Married 1701. Died 1719. Mother of ten children"

"Robert Carter, also known as Robert “King” Carter, was a land baron, Speaker of the House of Burgesses (1696–1698), treasurer of the colony (1699–1705), and a member of the governor’s Council (1700–1732). As senior member of the council, he served as president, or acting governor, from 1726 until 1727. Carter, as his nickname attests, was the richest and one of the most powerful Virginians of his day. Virginia-born, he inherited land from his uncle and his elder half-brother and spent much of the rest of his life accumulating more, most of it part of the Northern Neck Proprietary, for which he served as Virginia agent from 1702 until 1711 and from 1722 until 1732. At the time of his death, he held at least 295,000 acres of land, as well as numerous slaves. He also served as an agent for slave traders. Appointed to the Council by Governor Francis Nicholson, Carter nevertheless opposed Nicholson’s, and later Lieutenant Governor Alexander Spotswood’s, policies, designed to assert royal control, sometimes at the expense of the interests of the great planters. Carter died in 1721, leaving a will that filled forty pages..." Robert "King" Carter - Nomini Hall Slave Legacy <<< More detailed history<<<

Robert Carter I ​

PS: I wanted to direct folks to the original thread by Bill: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/275656-colonial-pit-dig-yields-3-early-bottle-seals-plus-other-cool-stuff.html

 

[joeyfresh]

I hope these get identified Bill. I know I've scoured all of my resources trying. Good luck!

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Thanks for all the info Surf. We already know tons about Robert Carter, and his seals are easily identifiable. But we really need help on some of the other ones I mentioned. Hopefully someone will chime in.

 

[Valley Ranger]

Wow, those are amazing Bill. Makes me wish I was from SE VA instead of Western VA.

 

[surf]

Hey Bill,

Sorry for the duplicative info. Must learn to read to the end of the fine print, or take another swing through Reader Rabbit...

 

[Kev Woodward]

I will not have time to really look at these until the weekend Bill as I have to earn a living and it is 14 hour working days until then.
However, to assist you and others the 'dragon' is actually a griffin and the curled up base of the neck is called 'erased', so the description will be 'a griffin's head erased'. This is a very common crest but the key to finding the family will be to identify what is in the griffin's beak as this will be unique to the family. If you can post a close up of that area or say what you think it is will help tremendously.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

I will not have time to really look at these until the weekend Bill as I have to earn a living and it is 14 hour working days until then.
However, to assist you and others the 'dragon' is actually a griffin and the curled up base of the neck is called 'erased', so the description will be 'a griffin's head erased'. This is a very common crest but the key to finding the family will be to identify what is in the griffin's beak as this will be unique to the family. If you can post a close up of that area or say what you think it is will help tremendously.

I totally understand Kev and realize that you have other obligations. We're in absolutely no hurry at all on this so whenever it's convenient for you will be just fine. We value your expertise and greatly appreciate your efforts to help us out with ID'ing these seals. I'll have to talk to my buddy as he's in possession of the griffin seal, while I have the other 2. I'll get him to take a close look at his and maybe send me some pics with better detail. I'll post any new info here. Thanks again for everything ..... Bill

 

[SusanMN]

What an absolute amazing site/set of finds. These are real treasures.

 

[John Boy]

Wow those are cool Bill.Really like them.

 

[oldsalty19]

sry can't help

 

[Jim of PA]

 

[Kev Woodward]

I have managed to confirm one of the coats of arms Bill and it is the one with the six dots - it belongs to the Brouncker family. There doesn't appear to be any Brouncker families in the US until the late 1860's according to the records so I was a bit puzzled as to how this bottle seal came from a 17th century pit. However, when I found out that a Henry Brouncker (3rd Viscount Brouncker) was one of the Trade and Plantation Commissioners for the British government from 1673-85 then the possibility of him coming over for official business seemed the most likely way this seal came to be where it was found. Apparently Henry did not have a good reputation in Britain and seemed to be a bit of a rogue, he was a drinker, gambler and womaniser, but was also an excellent chess player. A well educated family, his brother William (2nd Viscount Brouncker) was a celebrated mathematician and President of the Royal Society (a famous scientific society and the oldest in the world).
I have not been able to find the same crest on top of the arms but this is not that unusual as it could change or it means that I do not have the correct branch of the family, but I can not find any other early references or links to this family in the USA.

There is plenty on line about the family if you wish to carry out more research.

For more on Henry Henry Brouncker, 3rd Viscount Brouncker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For more on William William Brouncker, 2nd Viscount Brouncker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Brouncher coat of arms



Picture of Henry Brouncker, Commissioner of Trade and Plantations 1673-85



I'll try and sort out the others later.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

I have managed to confirm one of the coats of arms Bill and it is the one with the six dots - it belongs to the Brouncker family. There doesn't appear to be any Brouncker families in the US until the late 1860's according to the records so I was a bit puzzled as to how this bottle seal came from a 17th century pit. However, when I found out that a Henry Brouncker (3rd Viscount Brouncker) was one of the Trade and Plantation Commissioners for the British government from 1673-85 then the possibility of him coming over for official business seemed the most likely way this seal came to be where it was found. Apparently Henry did not have a good reputation in Britain and seemed to be a bit of a rogue, he was a drinker, gambler and womaniser, but was also an excellent chess player. A well educated family, his brother William (2nd Viscount Brouncker) was a celebrated mathematician and President of the Royal Society (a famous scientific society and the oldest in the world).
I have not been able to find the same crest on top of the arms but this is not that unusual as it could change or it means that I do not have the correct branch of the family, but I can not find any other early references or links to this family in the USA.

There is plenty on line about the family if you wish to carry out more research.

For more on Henry Henry Brouncker, 3rd Viscount Brouncker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For more on William William Brouncker, 2nd Viscount Brouncker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Brouncher coat of arms

View attachment 784829

Picture of Henry Brouncker, Commissioner of Trade and Plantations 1673-85

View attachment 784830

I'll try and sort out the others later.

That's some very interesting information about that seal Kev. That is a rather obscure family name, but it obviously must have some tie-in to the site where it was found. By the way, the site where these seals are coming from was the home of a very prominent Virginian who knew and entertained a lot of important people of that period, so just about anyone could have visited there. But the strange thing is that we've dug several of these Brouncker seals from the pit so maybe he stayed at this location for an extended period of time. We'll continue to do some research on this from our end and will let you know if we can come up with any new info. And I'll be getting with my friend this weekend and will be taking some better pics of some of the seals, and we'll also try to figure out what the griffin has in his beak on that other seal you were looking into. And, again, I can't say enough how much we both appreciate you spending the time to help us with this. It's quite obvious you're extremely knowledgeable in this area and have quite a passion for it. So thank you again for all your assistance ..... Bill

 

[CRUSADER]

That's some very interesting information about that seal Kev. That is a rather obscure family name, but it obviously must have some tie-in to the site where it was found. By the way, the site where these seals are coming from was the home of a very prominent Virginian who knew and entertained a lot of important people of that period, so just about anyone could have visited there. But the strange thing is that we've dug several of these Brouncker seals from the pit so maybe he stayed at this location for an extended period of time. We'll continue to do some research on this from our end and will let you know if we can come up with any new info. And I'll be getting with my friend this weekend and will be taking some better pics of some of the seals, and we'll also try to figure out what the griffin has in his beak on that other seal you were looking into. And, again, I can't say enough how much we both appreciate you spending the time to help us with this. It's quite obvious you're extremely knowledgeable in this area and have quite a passion for it. So thank you again for all your assistance ..... Bill

As a Trade Commissioner, maybe he made some money by selling some of his wine to the US, an early exporter/wine dealer? Just thinking out loud.

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

As a Trade Commissioner, maybe he made some money by selling some of his wine to the US, an early exporter/wine dealer? Just thinking out loud.

That sounds like a plausible possibility Cru. But Kev mentioned that he might not have identified the correct branch of that family yet. Will be interesting to see how all this plays out. Very interesting indeed.

 

[CASPER-2]

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

That's some very interesting information about that seal Kev. That is a rather obscure family name, but it obviously must have some tie-in to the site where it was found. By the way, the site where these seals are coming from was the home of a very prominent Virginian who knew and entertained a lot of important people of that period, so just about anyone could have visited there. But the strange thing is that we've dug several of these Brouncker seals from the pit so maybe he stayed at this location for an extended period of time. We'll continue to do some research on this from our end and will let you know if we can come up with any new info. And I'll be getting with my friend this weekend and will be taking some better pics of some of the seals, and we'll also try to figure out what the griffin has in his beak on that other seal you were looking into. And, again, I can't say enough how much we both appreciate you spending the time to help us with this. It's quite obvious you're extremely knowledgeable in this area and have quite a passion for it. So thank you again for all your assistance ..... Bill

Kev - I was able to take a few more pics of that seal with the griffin over the weekend. You were wanting to see what was in his beak in order to narrow things down a bit. Based on the 3 pics below it looks like it's some kind of fish with a barbed tail. Does that look familiar? You can click on each pic to enlarge if necessary. Hopefully that detail will shed some more light on things. Thank you again ..... Bill

 

[tomjacks]

I am the author of the 3 volume book published last year titled "Antique Sealed Bottles 1640 - 1900 and the families who owned them". I've only just seen this thread and have joined this morning as I am interested in the griffin seal engraving. It can often be quite difficult to identify a complex coat of arms or crest as when the seal die is impressed on a blob of glass placed on the side of the bottle, the glass is hot so that during the annealing (cooling) process, the glass can run, not necessarily much but sufficient for a small charge to lose definition. This is the case with your griffin seal and what it has in its beak. I have managed to identify the crest, which can best be described as a griffin's head erased, in beak, an eft (lizard), within a beaded border. As you say, it was discovered in a very important house from an American colonial standpoint, Corotoman, and there is a good reason why the original bottle(s) was found on the site. The crest of a griffin’s head erased is very common but the addition of an eft in the beak is associated with the Travers family of Virginia. John Carter, son of the John Carter who bought Corotoman, was born c.1648 and died ‘before 1690’. He was the elder brother by fifteen years of Robert ‘King’ Carter and when their father died in 1669, he acted as a ‘father figure’ to his much younger sibling. John married twice, firstly, c.1671 to Elizabeth Hull, and secondly in 1684 to Elizabeth Travers, daughter of Captain Raleigh Travers (1622-1700), son of William Travers and Rebecca Barrett. Raleigh Travers was born in Stafford County and died in Richmond County, Virginia and it is probable that he was the original owner of the sealed bottle bearing this seal engraving. It is interesting to speculate that the bottles were ordered to celebrate the marriage of his daughter in 1684. I hope this helps. David B

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

I am the author of the 3 volume book published last year titled "Antique Sealed Bottles 1640 - 1900 and the families who owned them". I've only just seen this thread and have joined this morning as I am interested in the griffin seal engraving. It can often be quite difficult to identify a complex coat of arms or crest as when the seal die is impressed on a blob of glass placed on the side of the bottle, the glass is hot so that during the annealing (cooling) process, the glass can run, not necessarily much but sufficient for a small charge to lose definition. This is the case with your griffin seal and what it has in its beak. I have managed to identify the crest, which can best be described as a griffin's head erased, in beak, an eft (lizard), within a beaded border. As you say, it was discovered in a very important house from an American colonial standpoint, Corotoman, and there is a good reason why the original bottle(s) was found on the site. The crest of a griffin’s head erased is very common but the addition of an eft in the beak is associated with the Travers family of Virginia. John Carter, son of the John Carter who bought Corotoman, was born c.1648 and died ‘before 1690’. He was the elder brother by fifteen years of Robert ‘King’ Carter and when their father died in 1669, he acted as a ‘father figure’ to his much younger sibling. John married twice, firstly, c.1671 to Elizabeth Hull, and secondly in 1684 to Elizabeth Travers, daughter of Captain Raleigh Travers (1622-1700), son of William Travers and Rebecca Barrett. Raleigh Travers was born in Stafford County and died in Richmond County, Virginia and it is probable that he was the original owner of the sealed bottle bearing this seal engraving. It is interesting to speculate that the bottles were ordered to celebrate the marriage of his daughter in 1684. I hope this helps. David B

David - thank you so much for your detailed and informative reply to my old post. Nice to have someone with your level of expertise offer their comments. And BTW - last year I purchased the 3 volume set that you authored - just an outstanding publication! For some reason myself and my UK friend thought the griffin was holding a fish in its beak as that's what it appears to be upon first glance. But I certainly trust your judgement on these matters. And that's great that you've identified this particular seal as being associated with the Travers family, and I plan to do some additional research on that. Also, to clarify things, neither this seal nor any of the others were recovered at Corotoman, but at another early and prestigious site in the same general area that cannot be named for obvious reasons. I believe the owner of this manor was good friends with Robert Carter. And speaking of Carter, I fairly certain the 1713 seal shown in my post was ordered for his 50th birthday celebration (as he was born in 1663).

I was also later able to determine, with the help of my UK friend Kev, that the seal shown in the 4th pic in my original post was from the Brouncker family. However, Kev's research indicated there weren’t any Brounckers in the US until the 1860s. But after further investigation he discovered that a Henry Brouncker was one of the Trade and Plantation Commissioners for the British government from 1673-85, and his job could easily have taken him to colonial Virginia. Since the site of the trash pit was a large plantation that was heavily involved in commerce it’s quite possible Brouncker visited this location, or maybe used his position to sell his own wine. Be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.



And finally, the last pic in my post shows the largest seal found at this site which had the monogram “I-M” stamped on it. Another friend of mine steered me to a website that contained diaries and letters from Robert Carter that mentioned a London merchant named Jonathan Mathews who was the co-owner of the 60-ton trading vessel “Friendly Society” who made runs between London, Barbados and Virginia. There is further evidence from written letters in the very early 1700s that Mathews was involved in the tobacco trade with a number of wealthy planters in the immediate area where the bottle seal was found. As was the case with Brouncker, it will be impossible to verify if this seal actually came from Mathews’ personalized wine bottle, but it’s a very intriguing possibility.



Please feel free to provide you input on these other two seals as it would be nice to get some confirmation, especially since they will be included in one of the chapters in a book I'm currently putting together about Virginia colonial artifacts. Thanks again David!

UPDATE: David - I just did some searching online and found the following crest for the Travers family labeled as "A Griffin's Head Erased Or, Holding In The Beak An Eft Az" (last pic below). But this clearly shows a lizard-like creature in its beak, and does not resemble what looks like a fish in the seal I posted. What do you think?