Need Button Expert - French Military

[ScubaFinder]

OK, we've had a little research conundrum for several years now. We found a French shipwreck that we believe to be very important, but we've never really been able to trace it down with 100% certainty. We believe it is a transport ship that had two purposes in the New World...one of them being to deliver supplies to help stop the Louisiana Purchase. This might be a neat part of American history if we can prove the ship name and purpose.

We think these buttons may be a very valuable clue to our ongoing research, knowing the regiment (or anything) of the soldiers who wore these will give us a new starting point for archival research now that all other leads have come up less than stellar. We found the boat on the north coast of the Dominican republic, in Monte Cristi bay. We believe it is a French ship from somewhere around the very late 1700's or very early 1800's.

I'm not above begging, and we're certainly not above giving anyone who can help a little "gift" from the shipwreck when we take possession of the artifacts (they are in the governemnt lab at the moment). thanks in advance for any help...we are desperate and our researcher is busy on other tasks.

Sooo, what can you tell me about these?

Jason

 

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[oldfireguy]

What limited information I could find on French buttons I agree. Late 1700's to early 1800's.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

When I get a chance, I ll search for you. So far the second button looks very much like this late 1700's French Colonial Marines.
http://www.artifacts.org/francepage.htm




NAVAL AND COLONIAL ARMIES
1772-1789

A variety of buttons like those above were worn by enlisted members of the French Armées Naval et Coloniale (Naval and Colonial Armies), which included naval, marine, and colonial infantry forces. Naval and Marine forces wore gold or "yellow" colored buttons, while colonial troops were called upon to use "white" or silver colored versions of these patterns. Officers wore foil-clad, bone backed versions of these and other, similar "anchor button" designs. Such buttons would have been worn by the French naval and marine forces, as well as by the colonial Du Cap regiment, during the 1781 siege of Pensacola.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Big Cypress, thanks! You and PBK were two I hoped for, I'm batting 500 now. Thanks to fireguy as well. I'm very happy...god bless treasurenet.

Jason

 

[Iron Patch]

The first I'd guess French Revolution period Marine Artillery. The second no doubt the same era but I have no real idea on. Unfortunately close doesn't always count like the one posted in the reply, although several years in the difference could account for the change in design.

 

[CRUSADER]

The first I'd guess French Revolution period Marine Artillery. The second no doubt the same era but I have no real idea on. Unfortunately close doesn't always count like the one posted in the reply, although several years in the difference could account for the difference.

I agree with IP the 'Republique Francaise' button follows a similar layout (& look & feel) of French buttons dating to the 1790-1793 period. Its logical to believe that the symbols indicate the 'French Marine Artillery'.

The second, I'm less sure of, so no comment, other than if found with the other button on the same ship then its likely to be a similar date.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The first I'd guess French Revolution period Marine Artillery. The second no doubt the same era but I have no real idea on. Unfortunately close doesn't always count like the one posted in the reply, although several years in the difference could account for the difference.

I agree with IP the 'Republique Francaise' button follows a similar layout (& look & feel) of French buttons dating to the 1790-1793 period. Its logical to believe that the symbols indicate the 'French Marine Artillery'.

The second, I'm less sure of, so no comment, other than if found with the other button on the same ship then its likely to be a similar date.

As far as the second button, it has all the key elements of the one posted. Different manufacturer or different year could account for the differences. At least I believe it gives us a date to work with. The very informative link posted says quote "A variety of buttons like those above were worn by enlisted members of the French Armées Naval et Coloniale (Naval and Colonial Armies)" Its the closest match we have.

Here are the crossed cannons of a 1700's French Artillery (1st pic). I would agree that the first is the French Marine Artillery (Artillerie de Marine)

I agree this République Française button is likely from the same period being found together, plus or minus two years. Im still looking. What we need is someone with French military books or Alberts maybe. Everything is not online. Someone will find it.

The second pic is a button worn by the French Marine Artillery of a much later date (1872).

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is some interesting reading from the link posted. Before 1763 the French Marine buttons were plain.



France began to mandate and utilize unit-specific marked buttons for its soldiers in 1762. While process began too late for these buttons to see use in North America before the end of the French colonial period in 1763, it set a precedent for European military fashion that, in turn, was emulated by Britain in 1768. The regulation and design of marked buttons for the various components and ranks of the French armed forces progressed rapidly through time until a plethora of different button designs evolved to identify and distinguish every regular and auxiliary constituent element of that nation's military establishment.

Between 1762 and 1780, the French military establishment was reorganized six times. Each of these reorganizations resulted in the formation of new regiments, the dissolution or renaming of old ones, and the merging of others into consolidated units bearing either new or old names. Through all these and later changes, however, one thing remained constant. Each French infantry regiment was assigned a name and a corresponding regimental number, and that number was placed on the buttons of the men in the regiment to which that designation had been assigned. As a matter of standard practice but with a few exceptions, these infantry buttons bore their appropriate regimental numbers in their centers. On each button, this number was encircled by a foliole, or foliated broken line, with a dot in the center between the disconnected ends of that line. The entirety of this design was inset from the outer edge of the button. Other button and insignia designs were created for and assigned to the other regular and auxiliary elements of the French military establishment.

Students, collectors, and collections administrators dealing with French military uniform buttons of this period should remain cognizant of several considerations related to French military buttons and uniform goods in general:

The uniforms for each regiment were normally rotated every two years on a staggered basis. Therefore, it was not standard practice for an entire regiment receive its entire complement of replacement uniform goods at the same time, and a soldier who transferred into one regiment from another would still have worn his old uniform until it was replaced through fresh regimental issue or attrition. Normally, each regiment's colonel would order uniforms for his men. The cost of these uniforms would be deducted from the soldiers' pay. This both allowed the regimental commander to make a profit and insured that the unit's supply of uniform goods would be monitored and maintained.

If a regiment received new uniforms soon or immediately following a change of regulations for that unit and new uniform regulations were issued a year or two later, there would have been a period following the issue of those newer regulations during which at least some the troops in each regiment would still have been wearing their older uniforms (and buttons) until all the soldiers in the regiment received new, regulation issue clothing during the course of the regular two-year replacement cycle.

"White metal" and "yellow metal" button colors in the French military establishment did not necessarily imply, respectively, pewter and brass buttons for enlisted personnel as was the norm in the British, Spanish, and American armed forces. French "White metal" enlisted issue uniform buttons were usually made of a conventional or "lighter than usual" brass or bronze alloy coated with an inexpensive but attractive mixture of tin and mercury to impart a silver-like, or "white", appearance. This coating almost invariably quickly erodes away when the artifact upon which it is applied is interred in the ground, leaving the button or other, similarly treated metallic object to be subsequently recovered bearing little or no trace of its having ever been thus coated or plated.

French enlisted personnel most commonly wore one-piece, solid cast (and occasionally subsequently die-stamped) buttons with durable, "turret"-like, integrally cast, tapered rectanguloid and double perforated shanks. This shank configuration was unique to French manufacture and use, and it was retained in service through and beyond the Napoleonic period.

French military officers' buttons were of the same construction as those worn by officers of their European and American counterparts. These buttons were of stamped gilt or silver (or silver plated) foil which was crimped around perforated bone or wood backs. Crossing catgut cords were threaded through the backs' perforations to provide for their attachment to the uniforms upon which they were to be affixed. These "bone-backed" buttons were infamously unpopular with the officers who wore them, and soon after the American War for Independence they were phased out of service by Britain, Spain, and the United States. However, France continued to use these buttons until the end of the Napoleonic period.


Anything on the back, Jason?

 

[Iron Patch]

Here is some interesting reading from the link posted. Before 1763 the French Marine buttons were plain.

I've found about 100 of them. Best day being 18 in the company of a French 12lb ball.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Does this look like it? This button was found along Goose Creek in Maryland and may be connected to the War of 1812. They have yet to date it but maybe you can write to the Jefferson Patterson Park & Museum or contact Ed Chaney at 410-586-8554 or [email protected] . http://www.jefpat.org/3arch-current.htm

 

[Iron Patch]

Does this look like it? This button was found along Goose Creek in Maryland and may be connected to the War of 1812. They have yet to date it but maybe you can write to the Jefferson Patterson Park & Museum. http://www.jefpat.org/3arch-current.htm

People emigrated so different things turn up in different places. There would be no meaningful connection for the unit who wore those buttons to the War of 1812.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Yes, BigCypress...that's almost identical. Sorry I cannot comment on the back of the button, as these are currently stored at the conservation lab awaiting our division with the government. Through some new information, I think we may have the date narrowed a bit. It seems this ship was carrying lots of colonization supplies (we found boxes of horseshoes, nails, hinges, mitre saws, etc.). But it was also carrying some field artillery (Beringer bonze cannons) and the men to fire them. They were here to help qwell a Haitian uprising. The information points mroe to a 1802-1805 time frame.

The buttons may not do us any good, as they seem to be generic. The 2nd buttons has the 5 dashes whre the anchor crossbar would normally be, was hoping maybe this signified a "fifth regiment" or similar. If we knew which troops were on board, we think we could go through French military archives and figure out which ship they were loaded on, thus identifying our mystery ship.

We also found swords, flint-lock muskets, and about 1000 36 lb. cannonballs. We have yet to find the final resting place of the hull (very dirty water) but we can't be far off.

Thanks for all the input,

Jason

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The buttons may not do us any good, as they seem to be generic. The 2nd buttons has the 5 dashes whre the anchor crossbar would normally be, was hoping maybe this signified a "fifth regiment" or similar.

Good thinking. Hopefully someone can find this button with the dashes to see if it has any meaning..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Does this look like it? This button was found along Goose Creek in Maryland and may be connected to the War of 1812. They have yet to date it but maybe you can write to the Jefferson Patterson Park & Museum. http://www.jefpat.org/3arch-current.htm

People emigrated so different things turn up in different places. There would be no meaningful connection for the unit who wore those buttons to the War of 1812.

I thought maybe the museum researched the button and they may know more about it. . Its worth a shot.

 

[Iron Patch]

Does this look like it? This button was found along Goose Creek in Maryland and may be connected to the War of 1812. They have yet to date it but maybe you can write to the Jefferson Patterson Park & Museum. http://www.jefpat.org/3arch-current.htm

People emigrated so different things turn up in different places. There would be no meaningful connection for the unit who wore those buttons to the War of 1812.

I thought maybe the museum researched the button and they may know more about it. . Its worth a shot.

A single button without context rarely means anymore than a good find. I've seen some pretty strange ones pop up here, some I've had for years and know nothing about the units. Variety is one of the reasons I love digging early sites.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Through some new information, I think we may have the date narrowed a bit. It seems this ship was carrying lots of colonization supplies (we found boxes of horseshoes, nails, hinges, mitre saws, etc.). But it was also carrying some field artillery (Beringer bonze cannons) and the men to fire them. They were here to help qwell a Haitian uprising. The information points mroe to a 1802-1805 time frame.

Jason

I found this online and you probably already know this but its interesting.At the turn of the 18th century, Hispaniola was France's most profitable possession in the West Indies.

http://www.kislakfoundation.org/millennium-exhibit/damian1.htm

The first successful Black uprising began in 1791 in the French colony of Saint-Domingue (Haiti) on the island of Hispaniola. In 1801, the rebellion’s leader, Toussaint L’Ouverture, successfully led an invasion of the Spanish section of the island, Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic). He proclaimed liberty for all slaves and established a constitution, incurring the wrath of France, Spain and the United States. Jean-Jacques Dessalines and his army of blacks and mulattos defeated an army sent by Napoleon Bonaparte to end the rebellion. In 1804 Dessalines established the first black republic of the world and called it Haiti. After the United States, Haiti became the second republic in the Americas to declare independence.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I admit I didnt know much about the history of Haiti or Hispanola until you brought it up, even though we have many Haitian neighbors here in South Florida. It sure sounds like its a 1792-1804 time frame. Uncovering history is always interesting.

http://www.antislavery.org/breakingthesilence/slave_routes/slave_routes_haiti.shtml

It would be interesting to know exactly how this ship sank.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Nice links...while I don't have a good handle on exactly what happened to the ship, my guess is that he was blown into the bay by a storm. The bay of Monte Cristi is quite calm and protected, so she was likely demasted and without rudder or she could have avoided the reefs at Punta Luna (where we believe she came to rest). Punta Luna is a little moon-shaped bay on the southwestern edge of the bay of Monte Cristi. One of the more interesting artfacts found there are shackle molds, not the shackles themselves, but the molds to make them in quantity. We have found identical molds as far away as the islands (the seven brothers) just outside the bay. I believe she was in trouble in a storm, and while trying to get into safe harbor at Monte Cristi, she hit a reef and took some serious damage, but not enough to sink her. Then, being at the mercy of the winds she was blown across the bay and met her demise on the jagged reefs just out from the river that dumps into the bay.

That's all pure speculation, but based on what little we have to go on, that's my guess.

Jason

 

[CRUSADER]

Nice links...while I don't have a good handle on exactly what happened to the ship, my guess is that he was blown into the bay by a storm. The bay of Monte Cristi is quite calm and protected, so she was likely demasted and without rudder or she could have avoided the reefs at Punta Luna (where we believe she came to rest). Punta Luna is a little moon-shaped bay on the southwestern edge of the bay of Monte Cristi. One of the more interesting artfacts found there are shackle molds, not the shackles themselves, but the molds to make them in quantity. We have found identical molds as far away as the islands (the seven brothers) just outside the bay. I believe she was in trouble in a storm, and while trying to get into safe harbor at Monte Cristi, she hit a reef and took some serious damage, but not enough to sink her. Then, being at the mercy of the winds she was blown across the bay and met her demise on the jagged reefs just out from the river that dumps into the bay.

That's all pure speculation, but based on what little we have to go on, that's my guess.

Jason

Very interesting. I almost know where to start searching. lol

 

[ScubaFinder]

Don't mind that Dominican Navy boat...the first few are just warning shots. On the Florida coast, I would not so easily throw a location out there, but this country handles things a little differently, and I like it.