My oldest coin - I Didnt even know I had it

[shack24]

My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Last summer I had found some great stuff around an old home in Southeast Missouri that had burned down. I found this large coin shaped object but I couldn't make out much on it so I put it in my finds box and kind of forgot about it. Yesterday I remembered it and decided to really try to identify what it was. I found it very close to the surface and it looks like a lawnmower had gotten a hold of it at some time.
After some work I could see a date: 1832. Then the name: Petrus II. I went with this and found out that it is actually a 40 Reis coin from Brazil.
My oldest coin up to that point had been an 1860's shield nickel. Oh and a 100 Mon Japanese coin from somewhere between 1835 and 1870 that I found in the same yard as the 40 Reis.

What I really like about this coin is it made me look up and learn about Petrus II (Pedro II) He was the last Emperor of the Brazilian Empire and came to power at the age of 5 when his father hightailed it out of Brazil. He is credited with making Brazil a world power. He came to power in 1831, the year before the coin was minted and his rule lasted until 1889. Another interesting fact about the coin is that it was originally an 80 Reis piece but was re-struck to be 40. You can see it in the last couple pictures of a coin in good shape. Wish mine had been. Still, a great find I think. I am a high school Spanish teacher with a history minor so this got me really excited. The 1830's were some very interesting years in South an Central America. I wish I could see what this coin has seen during its 180 years.

HH!
Jared

 

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[pl8man]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Cool find

 

[Marinehunter]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Nice job going back and checking.

 

[lost hunter]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

 

[TommNJ]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

That's a cool looking old coin, !

TommNJ

 

[shack24]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

I had another member want a look at the Japanese 100 Mon coin I found in the same yard so I am posting a couple pictures.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Thanks Shack!
Let me work on this for a few minutes. Identifying the old bronze stuff can be tricky.
Luckily I have Hartill's new book. Would be a necessity in this case!!!!!

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Here is some text refering to your coin (the Tempo Tsuho / 100 Mon) that I cut out of David Hartills book "Early Japanese Coins" for your reading pleasure.
Meanwhile I am still analyzing the types and illustrations!!!!!

天保通寶Tempo Tsuho.
In the 6th month of the 6th year of Tempo (October 1835) an oval copper coin called the 當百銭
To Hyaku Sen (Value 100 Coin) or Tempo Tsuho was authorised, and in the 9th month itht was
put into circulation. Its official weight was at first 5 momme 5 bu (20.6 grams) but this was
changed to 5 momme 8 bu (21.75 grams) when it was issued. The alloy was 78% copper, 12%
lead, and 10% tin, although this deteriorated as time went on. Although only the mints of Honza
in Edo, and Osaka were officially authorised to produce this coin, many were made illegally by
provincial mints such as Satsuma, Mito, Fukuoka, Kochi, Yamaguchi, Aizu, Sendai, Akita and
Morioka. It was decreed that its value should be 100 mon, although it was really only worth 96.
From this has arisen the expression “Tempo” meaning a fool, or someone who is a few cash short
of the 100. Like all nominal 100 coins, it was extremely profitable to make, and the daimyo
sought to avail themselves of this potential profit by unauthorised casting.
Within a few years, the number of Tempo coins made reached 484,804,054. In the Man-en
era, in 1860 at Edo, 300,000 Tempo coins a day were made in the hopes of redeeming the great
deal of paper money in circulation. Its casting continued until 1869.
Over 100 varieties of the Tempo have been recorded, but most of the differences “are only perceptible
to those who have made such matters a special study”. Not only changes in the calligraphy,
and differences in shape, but also differences in workmanship are criteria for attributions.
Official coins were cast using very fine sand from Bosho in Chiba which gave the coins a smooth
field. Illegal mints used coarser sand, which resulted in a grainy field. Only a few significant
varieties are noted here.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Here is a picture of the few types listed.
also descriptions of each.
I am leaning toward 5.10 which is characterized by broad rims and thick fonts. Unfortunately it is a common type (value listed as $10~$100).
But it is tantalizingly similar to 5.12 (see the long left leg of the bottom kanji (font))?
that is listed as Extra Rare (value listed between $1000 $10,000 depending on condition).
The real story is how the heck that made its way to Tennessee!

Obv: 天保通寶Tem Po Tsu Ho (Currency of the Tempo Era).
Rev: 當百 To Hyaku (Value 100). Below the hole the signature of the mint official. On the edges
on both sides, stamps of sakura (cherry blossom) of various sizes.
Attributed to Honza, Edo, Musashi Province. 本座 江戸 武蔵 . From 1835.
5.5 長郭 Cho kaku (Long hole). The vertical sides of the hole are longer than the horizontal.
J322, JNDA 135.1 C
5.6 細郭Sai kaku (Thin hole). The rim of the hole is thin. J323, JNDA 135.2 S
5.7 広郭Ko kaku (Broad hole). The rim of the hole is broad. From 1846. J324, JNDA 135.3 C
Attributed to Satsuma 薩摩.
5.8 Broad flan. (Another variety has a broad hole as well). J342, JNDA 135.6 C
Attributed to Yamaguchi 山口.
5.9 Feet of 寶 ho short. J341, JNDA 136.11 C
Attributed to Mito 水戸.
5.10 Wide rims, thick characters. J329, JNDA 136.13 C
Attributed to Aizu 会津.
5.11 寶 Ho has short feet and a small 貝. J326, JNDA 137.16 S
Attributed to Sendai 仙台.
5.12 A rare variety with a long curving left foot of 寶 ho. J331, JNDA 137.18 ER
Tempo in red copper are attributed to Akita, and coins with a grainy field and a small flan to
Morioka.

 

[shack24]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Here is some text refering to your coin (the Tempo Tsuho / 100 Mon) that I cut out of David Hartills book "Early Japanese Coins" for your reading pleasure.
Meanwhile I am still analyzing the types and illustrations!!!!!

天保通寶Tempo Tsuho.
In the 6th month of the 6th year of Tempo (October 1835) an oval copper coin called the 當百銭
To Hyaku Sen (Value 100 Coin) or Tempo Tsuho was authorised, and in the 9th month itht was
put into circulation. Its official weight was at first 5 momme 5 bu (20.6 grams) but this was
changed to 5 momme 8 bu (21.75 grams) when it was issued. The alloy was 78% copper, 12%
lead, and 10% tin, although this deteriorated as time went on. Although only the mints of Honza
in Edo, and Osaka were officially authorised to produce this coin, many were made illegally by
provincial mints such as Satsuma, Mito, Fukuoka, Kochi, Yamaguchi, Aizu, Sendai, Akita and
Morioka. It was decreed that its value should be 100 mon, although it was really only worth 96.
From this has arisen the expression “Tempo” meaning a fool, or someone who is a few cash short
of the 100. Like all nominal 100 coins, it was extremely profitable to make, and the daimyo
sought to avail themselves of this potential profit by unauthorised casting.
Within a few years, the number of Tempo coins made reached 484,804,054. In the Man-en
era, in 1860 at Edo, 300,000 Tempo coins a day were made in the hopes of redeeming the great
deal of paper money in circulation. Its casting continued until 1869.
Over 100 varieties of the Tempo have been recorded, but most of the differences “are only perceptible
to those who have made such matters a special study”. Not only changes in the calligraphy,
and differences in shape, but also differences in workmanship are criteria for attributions.
Official coins were cast using very fine sand from Bosho in Chiba which gave the coins a smooth
field. Illegal mints used coarser sand, which resulted in a grainy field. Only a few significant
varieties are noted here.

Wow, very interesting read! I am fascinated by far east history and culture. I am excited to see what you come up with. I'll also try to get some better pictures tomorrow.

 

[g-olden years]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Really interesting old coins! Thanks for sharing the details everyone. HH Andi

 

[70monte68]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Nice find!

 

[worldtalker]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Cool find Jared!!!The odd stuff can be quite thrilling! God Bless Chris

 

[G.A.P.metal]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Cool old coin

 

[shack24]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Here is my best effort to draw what I see on the coin..... man it was tough!

#1 I can't really tell if this is a second line that goes down or if it is just the two top lines touching. Very hard to tell.

#2 This last character I have not been able to find in any of the 100 Mon coins I have looked at but there is an unmistakable vertical line within the character.

P.S. Dave, thanks for your help.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Hey Shack,

You say that bottom "ho" kanji has an extra vertical stroke?
wow. That is a very common kanji in all old bronze coins. there is only one way to write it though with many font variations, but an extra vertical stroke would not be colloquial.
However as I noted earlier on the post, a lot of homemade behind the barn casts were made. You honestly cannot compare the mint process to u.s. coins.
and perhaps an error was made. Often I have found that the rarer unauthorized are of more value so hope you are right. but it would be about the same as making a coin that spelled out
" In Zod we Trust".
You feel certain about the vertical stroke?
post clearer pics or do a pencil or chalk imprint of the kanji
all the best,
dave

 

[shack24]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

Here are some much better pictures of the coin.
Hope this helps, Dave.

 

[Discrimination Dave]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

That is a nice clear pic Jared,
but
the bottom Kanji is still "Ho".
Thus the name of the coin:
Ten(the top kanji /character)
Po, the second (from top to bottom)
Tsu (the third kanji just below the square hole)
Ho
the bottom kanji.

Both Tsu an Ho, AND ESPECIALLY HO..,　are common kanji on bronze coins of 1000 to almost 200 years old.
Do a google on "bita sen"
or Kan ei tsu ho
You will see both the TSU AND HO kanji often. The kanji will be read from right to top center to bottom center to finally left.

Also, look clearly at the thicknesses of the characters/ kanji all across your coin and compare to the seeming vertical stroke.
I personally think it is an anomaly. BUT as Hartill stated "only those well studied in these coins can typify"
Thanks for the better pics though, i will look closer tomorrow and show some friends.
It is sunday night, no check that. monday morn 1am in Japan now. Gotta crash
Later bro

 

[shack24]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

That is a nice clear pic Jared,
but
the bottom Kanji is still "Ho".
Thus the name of the coin:
Ten(the top kanji /character)
Po, the second (from top to bottom)
Tsu (the third kanji just below the square hole)
Ho
the bottom kanji.

Both Tsu an Ho, AND ESPECIALLY HO..,　are common kanji on bronze coins of 1000 to almost 200 years old.
Do a google on "bita sen"
or Kan ei tsu ho
You will see both the TSU AND HO kanji often. The kanji will be read from right to top center to bottom center to finally left.

Also, look clearly at the thicknesses of the characters/ kanji all across your coin and compare to the seeming vertical stroke.
I personally think it is an anomaly. BUT as Hartill stated "only those well studied in these coins can typify"
Thanks for the better pics though, i will look closer tomorrow and show some friends.
It is sunday night, no check that. monday morn 1am in Japan now. Gotta crash
Later bro

Great information, Dave! Thanks a ton.

 

[windage]

Re: My oldest coin - I Didn't even know I had it

gotta love the junk bucket!