My latest mystery to solve

[dcinffxva]

I'm fairly new to this board, but so far have been impressed by the knowledge of some of the members, so I'll toss out a new mystery that maybe ya'll can shed some light on. I picked these two muskets up from a gentleman who had gotten them from a museum. I left the ID tags hanging on the trigger guards.

CS Richmond 1863 dated

US Model 1863 type I

Now....here is the mystery part. He also had an old lock, which I picked up as well. The lock is stamped into the wood:

Confederate States Military Prison
Andersonville
Lock from North gate of Stockade
1861-1865

I E-mailed photos of the lock to an antique lock dealer, and this is his reply:

Your lock is by Harper and is a stock lock. Harper was a large manufacturer of locks in England and their locks were imported into the U.S. in large quantities during the early and mid-1800's. They simply used them where they needed locks and have no more significance than that. It looks like someone stamped the information on the lock when it was removed from the prison to keep a record of where it had been.

That's about all the information I can give you.

I took it to a reputable antique arms dealer, who stated that he knew nothing about locks, but the wood and stamping appeared to be Civil War period. I know that the prison was referred to as Camp Sumter, and that it only was occupied 1864-65. Still, it is an original lock from the period, and the stamping does appear to be old as well. What are ya'lls thoughts, and what resources would be good to explore ?

 

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[Narthoniel]

While I cant provide any information, i can say those guns are beautiful, and the lock is an awesome collection piece. Very nice.

 

[dcinffxva]

Thanks !

I meant to post this in the ID forum....oops

 

[allen_idaho]

That lock is very interesting. And definately a keeper.

Andersonville was a quite notorious prison during the civil war. There was even a famous book written about it and the poor treatment of prisoners that took place. It is a very important piece of military history. Even more so than the muskets.

 

[chuckbordell]

I don't know that there is any way to prove that the lock was actually used at Andersonville. If it was, it would be extremely valuable. Andersonville was the worst of the southern POW camps There have been movies made and pulitzer prize winning novels written about it. Mayb send it to the History Detectives show on PBS.

 

[Bavaria Mike]

Very nice collectibles, those muskets are awesome! HH, Mike

 

[l.cutler]

The 1863 Springfield looks like a nice piece. The "Richmond" looks like a Springfield that has had a Richmond lockplate added to look like a more valuable Confederate rifle musket, note the patina on the barrel and hammer do not match the patina on the lockplate, one of the forst red flags to an altered weapon. If genuine, the lock could be a real prize, if you could trace back the provenance of it would be helpful. I believe that the prison was a log stockade, so I don't know if it would have had this type of lock. Thanks for posting, love the Civil war stuff!

 

[dcinffxva]

I think some of the difference in appearance is my bad camera angle, and the flash. Some of my pictures of other muskets are deceiving. I should take the pics in natural sunlight. It has all the other correct features (T-slot for the sight, no Maynard cutout etc.), and I had it appraised by David Condon, who has pretty solid credentials. Here are some better pics of the lock and hammer.

 

[dcinffxva]

I don't know that there is any way to prove that the lock was actually used at Andersonville. If it was, it would be extremely valuable. Andersonville was the worst of the southern POW camps There have been movies made and pulitzer prize winning novels written about it. Mayb send it to the History Detectives show on PBS.

I sent the History Detectives an E-mail, with photos, and never got a reply from them. Not sure how long they take, but it has been a few months.

 

[chipveres]

About the 1863 Richmond; does anybody know if the correct marking should read "CS" or "CSA"?

Chip V.

 

[DCMatt]

About your lock..

Here's a photo of a lock in the National POW Museum said to be from the Andersonville prison. You be the judge.

DCMatt

 

[dcinffxva]

About your lock..

Here's a photo of a lock in the National POW Museum said to be from the Andersonville prison. You be the judge.

DCMatt

I saw that lock when I was at Andersonville. I tried to copy that picture off the web, and for some reason couldn't. That lock is from the south gate, and was the prisoner entrance, and is quite a bit larger than the one I have. The north gate was the guard entrance, and as far as I've been able to find, the locks (it appeared there were two, one on the outer door, one on the inner) were never identified.

 

[DCMatt]

DC,

You are correct. My (very limited) research shows there was a north & south gate on the exterior stockade. Here is a little info from the Net:
_________________________________________
Included in the construction of the stockade were two gates positioned along the west stockade line. The gates were described in historic accounts as "small stockade pens, about 30 feet square, built of massive timbers, with heavy doors, opening into the prison on one side and the outside on the other" (Bearss 1970:25). Each gate contained wickets (door-sized entryways).

The North Gate consisted of a boxlike enclosure projecting westward from the main stockade. The walls of the Gate were constructed in the same manner as the original stockade with squared posts set in a wall trench roughly five feet deep. The gateways into and out of the gate were centered on the east and west walls of the enclosure. The dimensions of the North Gate were actually 27.6 ft by 34.8 ft. The doorways of the gate were roughly 2.9 meters wide (9.5 ft).
________________________________________
Your lock doesn't seem heavy enough for a nearly 10 foot wide door.

That said, there was also an interior fence inside the main stockade to keep prisoners away from the outside walls. There must have been locks on the gates through this fence, too. But I doubt the interior gates would have had the same designation as the larger, outside gates. In other words, they would not have called the interior gate the "north gate".

I found a few pictures of the camp ruins taken in 1867, so we know the camp was not immediately dismantled or destroyed.

I also found references to some monuments placed in the 1930's marking the location of the north gate, so we know there was renewed interest in the location some 65 years after it closed. This would have been a great time for "relics" such as your lock to surface.

The other problems I have with the lock are:

1) the inscription - Why would it say 1861 - 1865 if the camp was built in 1864? Why would the name Andersonville be used instead of the official camp name? I suggest you look at the newspaper articles of the day to see if that's what they called it back then.

2) the condition - I'm no expert by an stretch, but to me the condition suggests it was an interior lock - not exposed to the elements...

Just my opinion...

DCMatt

 

[Monty]

The Springfield Armory is the first US Armory and is in Springfield , MA and has a complete collection of 1863 Springfield rifles. Check <http://www.rediscov.com/spring.htm> . I tried to copy that page to this response but couldn't get it to go through. Monty

 

[dcinffxva]

DCMatt,

I hadn't seen those dimensions for the north gate before, thanks for pulling them up. I got these drawings from the Smithsonian website, and they are obviously no where near to scale.

The lock itself measures roughly 10"X6", so it is substantially larger than would have been used on many indoor structures. The part about the wooden framing would lead me to think that it would not have been from an area where prisoners would have access to it (I've been a cop for 24+ years and tend to think of things like that). I hadn't thought about the exposure aspect before, but how much weathering would occur in the 14 months or so the prison existed ? Plus the camp was enlarged after its' initial opening.

I have to admit, I'm of the opinion that this is an item that can't be proven positively either way, although I'm hoping that I will get some more ideas here in which direction to search. The terminology stamped into it indicates to me that whoever did it was not familiar with the southern terms, or history, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility of it being taken by any of the Union Soldiers as a war trophy, and being marked with what they thought was appropriate. The appropriate term for a set of double prison doors is "sallyport", although I'm honestly not sure of when that term came into usage. Stockade may have been correct for the 1860's.

Since you are local (I'm in Arlington) I'd be happy to let you have a hands on assessment, since things are always easier to judge in person.

 

[DCMatt]

I've been reading a little of
ANDERSONVILLE:
A STORY OF
REBEL MILITARY PRISONS.
FIFTEEN MONTHS A GUEST
OF THE SO-CALLED SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY
A PRIVATE SOLDIER'S EXPERIENCE

RICHMOND, ANDERSONVILLE, SAVANNAH, MILLEN,
BLACKSHEAR AND FLORENCE.
BY JOHN McELROY.
Late of Co. L, 16th Ills. Cav.

It is available in Google books. He was an officer. He uses the word "stockade" throughout, but it is in reference to the fence, not the gate. Interesting reading.

I'd love to see the lock. My office is in Arlington across from the VASQ Metro stop.

PM me for more specifics.

DCMatt

 

[trikikiwi]

Thanks for an interesting read dc and DC
I'm looking forward to your further comments on that lock - and those muskets are very nice.

I am wondering how you get muskets from a museum though?
Are these models that common that the museum had too many?

Mike

 

[dcinffxva]

I didn't get them from the museum, the guy I got them from did. From what he said, it fell prey to budget cuts, and was closed down, and it's items auctioned off. The Springfield isn't all that rare, but there were a lot of them that were cut down and used as shotguns after the war, and also a fair number that were converted to breach loaders by the Springfield arsenal when fixed ammunition became the standard. Finding them in good condition just isn't all that easy. Also, 1863 is the only year that they used screw on barrel bands. 1862 had retaining clips with springs, and in 1864 they went back to them because the screws would loosen up.

The CS Richmond is the most common of the Confederate made guns, but the south was lacking badly in industry, so they are all fairly rare.

 

[trikikiwi]

Thanks for the info dc.
I enjoy learning about the older weapons.

Mike

 

[dcinffxva]

Thanks for the info dc.
I enjoy learning about the older weapons.

Mike

No problem. I started a post with just my Civil War pieces in the miscellaneous column, so feel free to ask anything you like. I'll do my best to answer 'em !

Here is the link

Edited.....I just found the "My Collections" board......I really need to look at this site more !


http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,175588.0.html