Mounds,,Morals, Ethics, etc.

[tncreeker]

So here is my question. There are a lot of mounds in this area. I would never dig or disturb in any way. They have been pilfered in the past, digging sewer lines, building roads etc. I have found surface finds in the vicinity of these mounds(or whats left of them). I`m sure they were dug up with the dirt and where dirt was not used to fill in holes,,well they have come to the surface. So am I wrong to pick them up and keep them? I cant re-bury them. So,,,,,,what are your thoughts?
Thank you
Lori

 

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[Tnmountains]

Lori
As long as you have permission to hunt that area then I would not worry about picking anything up from the surface. Most not all mounds started as trash pits. Then they grew. The ancients would keep a clean camp. All flint flakes,bone,rocks and shell were dumped there. Not all mounds have burials in them either. Many do. When someone died they had to get them in the ground pretty quick and the easiest place to dig a good hole was in the (hate saying this like this) trash pit. We have hundreds of mounds here also.One site I hunt had a temple mound on it. It was dozed off flat in the early 50's for farming. You can dig down over 8 feet and still hit shell and flint. Looters left open holes, tractors got stuck and now they do not want anyone in there but family.Used to not be able to carry everything you found.That mound was spread over 150 acres. You did not even keep hammer stones as they added to much weight.
I say keep what you find with permission from land owners. I see lots of dug out ones all the time. During the Civil War soldiers dug many of them here during down time.They even placed cannons on them they were so high. The city took out bunches and up in Knoxville there is still one on UT campus. I fish a lot of them in the summer and hunt the tops in the winter when the water drops.
lol. I rambled but,, pick the artifacts up and save them and cherish them and learn them.

 

[GatorBoy]

I could not have said that better. It also sounded like a perfect description of my home turf.

 

[Get-the-point]

Once displaced and as long as you have permission to hunt, I say fair game. Anything historical and I mean anything should be saved NO MATTER WHAT!!!! That is why I cannot stand the existing rules governing waterways with the National Park Service. They do not care about how much history is washed away every year with floods. That is the true crime!!!!!.....................GTP(Chris)

 

[Oddjob]

As long as it is not Native American then you have not violated any national or international laws. Keep in mind that the illicit trafficking of cultural property & stolen works of art carries a sentence up to 25 years and no less than 4 years. All trials take place in the Netherlands.

 

[Get-the-point]

As long as it is not Native American then you have not violated any national or international laws. Keep in mind that the illicit trafficking of cultural property & stolen works of art carries a sentence up to 25 years and no less than 4 years. All trials take place in the Netherlands.

Maybe in your neck of the woods not in the USA. Yes certain states do not allow surface hunting, but most states as long as it is not gov't land or protected by the National park service is fair game with permission from the site owners. Common sense plays here as well though. If it is a possible important site then it should be investigated and all materials left in place!!!..........................GTP(Chris)

 

[Tnmountains]

This is America not the Netherlands.

 

[Get-the-point]

You can misinterpret my words as much as you wish it inly shows your intellectual level.

I simply pointed out the facts.

Yes if you have sold document cultural property or knowingly kept possession of cultural property then you have broken the law.

I never said anything at all about hunters breaking the law. My words are very clear, you read what you want to read.

Do not talk to me like I do not know America with your here in the USA crap.

Misinterpret your words?? Was it you who said it is against the law in all nations to hunt for artifacts? Was it you who said I was committing a crime by doing so? You ignorance of the laws is a clear indicator to your level of intelligence!! What is documented about the artifacts I have sold. The paper of authenticity?? This makes it a crime? You are so out of your league it isn't even remotely amusing. No where in your interpretation of the law does it state what I as a surface hunter do is wrong. Cultural artifacts that have been deemed protected are protected by me and all of my fellow surface hunters. Need I say more when I already explained that!! If you are going to apologize to anyone it should be to the people on the forum for spreading such ignorant rants of misinformation due to what you uphold. Foolishly and mindlessly. If artifacts are stolen from museums and protected places then do your job!!! If not then shut the hell up and stop spreading fear among people that follow the law!!! The very thought that you even spoke about it all is appalling and a clear testament to you level of knowledge. I think you might want to read up on the Laws of this nation regarding personal land holdings. Plus you have been gone for so long you must have forgotten the Constitution protecting landowners of there rights. I'm done responding to your stupidity. You can insult me for basically agreeing with your statement over protected lands and theft of collections, but do not ever tell me that surface hunting is illegal. As I said it is in certain states and protected areas but when it comes to sites that happen to be on privately owned land then it is the homeowner who has that right to say and choose who can search or not!!!

 

[Oddjob]

well I sure got schooled! I better turn in the Rembrandt I took from the Gardner right away, thanks for the heads up. I better cancel that trip to Syria to loot archeological sites too. But pardon my ignorance....can you direct me to the part that says I can't pick up a projectile point on my own property? I would also really appreciate the link that says they will send me to The Hague If I do....

As you said pardon your ignorance.... Sure thing, but I never once even hint at what you are talking about.

 

[Oddjob]

You really are out of you'r comfort and knowledge zone. Nobody said stealing was acceptable. You should not speak for the law when you don't know what you are talking about.

Your right no one did say that... But what you did say is that people like me give law enforcement a bad name.

So that was my job and I followed my order just as a Narco Officer would, CT, CI and so on would. So following orders and doing my job is why I give law enforcement a bad name.

I am clearly in my comfort zones as well as knowledge.

But thank you for your concern.

 

[Oddjob]

...check out this guys spelling and grammar, throughout his different postings.... no way he is what he claims to be.

I claim to be retired. How am I not retired?

 

[Get-the-point]

Oh and I see you like to metal detect?? Well in England the laws of metal detecting are quite strict! So when you find that ring on the beach do you bring it home to put in your collection? If it is not marked or inscribed what do you do with it? According to the law if you find something that once belonged to someone else you need to submit it to a police station and allow them to find the original owner. If the owner never claims it after a time-frame then it becomes yours. So do you do this every time you find a ring or a coin. Do you submit your coins under that English law that protects treasure? I doubt you do this with all your finds!! So I am probably correct in saying you as a ex-interpol agent have broken a few laws yourself.

 

[Get-the-point]

As long as it is not Native American then you have not violated any national or international laws. Keep in mind that the illicit trafficking of cultural property & stolen works of art carries a sentence up to 25 years and no less than 4 years. All trials take place in the Netherlands.

This quote right here was stated by you!!! Now you want to go and tell me that you did not say it was against the law to surface hunt. I responded to that and agreed on certain parts of that. Now you want to go against what you said and now state a different position. Proof is in your words sir!! You stated all Native American artifacts were off limits. That misled the poster. I corrected it and you tell me i'm breaking the law!! Now you say it is ok to surface hunt. Really what is your position on this, is it all Native American artifacts or just the protected one? Your first reply covers all, your last reply only covers certain. So it is you who is misinterpreting the law and defending your stance and now that you fully understand what I have said after you insult my intelligence you flip your stance and go with, I never said it was against the law to surface hunt. After you adamantly defended it was against the law. You are not as smart as you think. Especially when you are up against a lot of collectors who have been down this road before with people like yourself with your own agenda's. You should have admitted you were wrong in your first reply instead of attacking me and saying i'm breaking the law because i surface hunt!! Now you just change your stance without acknowledging that fact. Are you sure you are not flip Mitt!!!

 

[Get-the-point]

So what your telling me after I was medically retired from the US Army (Yes I am American) and then stayed in Europe working for Interpol in the Illicit Trafficking of Cultural Property & Stolen Works or Art Division we were all wrong.

Funny this... Every American we every arrested tried "Common Sense" too, they where probably the same type that felt it to be the Indians fault for being there first.

Law is Law no matter what a person thinks it should be.

Try a search engine called google, not sure if you have heard of that in your neck of the woods but laws are not only concealed in books these days but also on websites such as Interpol's.

But we had alot of military and police think the same thing too, yes they also went to the Netherlands.

Have fun with your common sense, hope it does not get you in too much trouble.

And Another quote by you stating surface hunting was against the law!!!!!

 

[Oddjob]

Oh and I see you like to metal detect?? Well in England the laws of metal detecting are quite strict! So when you find that ring on the beach do you bring it home to put in your collection? If it is not marked or inscribed what do you do with it? According to the law if you find something that once belonged to someone else you need to submit it to a police station and allow them to find the original owner. If the owner never claims it after a time-frame then it becomes yours. So do you do this every time you find a ring or a coin. Do you submit your coins under that English law that protects treasure? I doubt you do this with all your finds!! So I am probably correct in saying you as a ex-interpol agent have broken a few laws yourself.

I would not know what the laws are in England, I know in Italy is the same as you stated and as I stated on a previous thread before.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/beach-shallow-water/309093-ring-returns.html#post2905995

But it is nice to know the rules for England just in case I ever go there metal detecting. Thanks for that.

 

[Get-the-point]

tncreeker,

Apologies your thread has become completely misconstrued by users with there own laws and agendas. I was only trying to share information based laws.

I am certain once the other two users have realized they stomped your thread with misinterpretation they will continue there law research in a more appropriate place.


Kind Regards,

Another choice statement. Who stomped this thread with misinformation?? Clearly with all the above posts by you it is clear the only person that stomped was you. Now do us a favor and stomp on out with your fear tactics. In your own replies you used your understanding of the law as a universal tool. When that law only applies to certain situations and one this Forum does not condone as I said in my first reply. Yet you had to go on and state i'm a law-breaker because I do surface hunt. Of course that is my understanding when you put down, If it is not a native american artifact then you have broken no laws. So if they did find one under that statement they have broken the law for picking up and preserving it. You starting to get me on how you were in your replies!!??

 

[Oddjob]

Another choice statement. Who stomped this thread with misinformation?? Clearly with all the above posts by you it is clear the only person that stomped was you. Now do us a favor and stomp on out with your fear tactics. In your own replies you used your understanding of the law as a universal tool. When that law only applies to certain situations and one this Forum does not condone as I said in my first reply. Yet you had to go on and state i'm a law-breaker because I do surface hunt. Of course that is my understanding when you put down, If it is not a native american artifact then you have broken no laws. So if they did find one under that statement they have broken the law for picking up and preserving it. You starting to get me on how you were in your replies!!??

First try reading the words. I never said hunting of any kind was illegal.

Perhaps if you still can not read you should just stop. I replied to a thread as normal you came back with utter crap and misinterpretations.

Place your problems somewhere else, I have seen too many of your sort to even be bothered.

 

[GatorBoy]

If that person is really who they said they were then he is a testament to the idiots our government employs. Thank you Get-The-point very much for printing almost every word I wanted to say! Since I'm on a cell phone that would have been quite a chore. That Guy was so incorrect I find it hard to belive a word he said. I know fla.law forwards and backwords and volunteer for the local historical society and spent ten years employed by the park service after an honerable discharge from the army as an E-4 Airborne Rigger. Anyone who was trained as he said he was would be much more intelligent and honorable than that....mess

 

[Get-the-point]

First try reading the words. I never said hunting of any kind was illegal.

Perhaps if you still can not read you should just stop. I replied to a thread as normal you came back with utter crap and misinterpretations.

Place your problems somewhere else, I have seen too many of your sort to even be bothered.

Correct me if I am wrong,but wasn't it you that stated, if it is not a native american artifact then you have broken no laws to this poster? Did this poster ask if it was ok to search for artifacts? When you stated that reply to this poster you made it universal, not specific. That is misleading however you want to see it. So based on your words and this post you made it about all artifacts however found! Now you again insult me by stating what I said was utter crap and misinterpretations. What part of my statements were misleading in any way. Please do quote me!! No where did I mislead. To the contrary agreed with you on certain parts Yet you still want to be condescending with your replies. Please you are acting a fool when you should just apologize for insulting the poster, me and the others with your misguided stance!

 

[RGINN]

Sorry Oddjob. Trials for theft or sale of archaeological artifacts take place in the jurisdiction in which they occurred. Whatever court there is in the Netherlands has absolutely no jurisdiction over alleged offenses on US soil, and they probably wouldn't concern themselves with American arrowhead hunters anyway.