more "several unknowns"

[dirtfisher1127]

more "several unknowns"

Thanks to all of you who have responded, I'm having a GREAT time learning about some of my dug items that have been lying around in boxes for years.....unidentified! Thanks to all who helped me put a name to these. Here are a couple more............what looks like some sort of cartridge, but with a very thick brass "shell", and a very mangled sword guard (?) of some sort with Roman numerals filed into it. Does anyone recognize this guard as attributed to the Civil War, and if so, Union or Confederate? ( I realize this is a tough one because of the major damage--probably by a plow or disc.) Thanks! Jack.

 

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[BosnMate]

Re: more "several unknowns"

Millimeters doesn't do anything for me, but it looks like it might be a Spencer Rifle cartridge.

 

[dirtfisher1127]

Re: more "several unknowns"

Millimeters doesn't do anything for me, but it looks like it might be a Spencer Rifle cartridge.

Thanks, BosnMate..........the item is about 1 1/4 inches long and about 1/2 inches wide mat the base.

 

[Sheldon J]

Re: more "several unknowns"

On huge Caveat, that round is unfired, it could still be live. Black powder is tricky stuff so be careful..

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: more "several unknowns"

It is a wise rule to be cautious about monkeying around with any object which contains gunpowder. However in this case, speaking as a relic digger who has dug (and bought & sold) many hundreds of excavated civil war era cartridges, I will testify that the powder in Dirtfisher's rimfire-type mystery cartridge is totally ruined.

Dirtfisher, I agree with Bosnmate that it looks like a civil war era Spencer Repeating Rifle/Carbine .52-56 cartridge. However, for accurate ID, we need extra-precise measurements (such as .53-inch, or 13-millimeters, etc). Please use the calipers in the photo to check the diameter (in millimeters) of the copper casing's base-rim, and the casing's diameter just a little bit above the base-rim.

We also need an accurate measurement of the copper casing's length. But in the photo, its top looks like its edge might have been bent inward at a 90-degree angle toward the lead bullet's corroded remnant. Or is that just red dirt which is surrounding the lead? I'm asking because if the casing's edge is bent inward, the bending has the effect of shortening the casing's original length.

 

[dirtfisher1127]

Re: more "several unknowns"

It is a wise rule to be cautious about monkeying around with any object which contains gunpowder. However in this case, speaking as a relic digger who has dug (and bought & sold) many hundreds of excavated civil war era cartridges, I will testify that the powder in Dirtfisher's rimfire-type mystery cartridge is totally ruined.

Dirtfisher, I agree with Bosnmate that it looks like a civil war era Spencer Repeating Rifle/Carbine .52-56 cartridge. However, for accurate ID, we need extra-precise measurements (such as .53-inch, or 13-millimeters, etc). Please use the calipers in the photo to check the diameter (in millimeters) of the copper casing's base-rim, and the casing's diameter just a little bit above the base-rim.

We also need an accurate measurement of the copper casing's length. But in the photo, its top looks like its edge might have been bent inward at a 90-degree angle toward the lead bullet's corroded remnant. Or is that just red dirt which is surrounding the lead? I'm asking because if the casing's edge is bent inward, the bending has the effect of shortening the casing's original length.

Casing just above the rim is 15 mm. The casing is very thick and doesn't appear to have been bent inward. Casing-22 mm. Casing plus "lead"-26 mm. Base diameter-16 mm.


Thanks, CannonballGuy. I have dug several intact Spencer cartridges, and this is definitely not a Spencer....the dimensions are wrong and the casing is way too thick--in fact, I'm not even sure it's a cartridge, though it sure resembles one. I'm going to try and send a photo of a Spencer (put together 'cause I can't seem to find my intact ones!) alongside the "mystery piece" for comparison, and when I can find my calipers, I will try and make some accurate measurements for you.

 

[dirtfisher1127]

Re: more "several unknowns"

As best I can measure, the "bullet" is 22 mm.long-brass only, and 26 mm. including the lead or whatever in the top. The base diameter is 16 mm. and the shell casing is 2 to 2.5 mm. thick. The item weighs 29.5 grams.

 

[Monty]

Re: more "several unknowns"

I'm just the opposite of cannonball guy. I like to see my cartridges measured in inches rather than in metrics. Bukt thanks to thke many conversion tables I can usually figure it out. But here in America USA the actual bukllet itself is often expressed in metric meassures suich as the 6mm and 7mm- 08 Remington, 6.5mm Magnum, etc. Over the years I have learned to equate them with something I recognize. I noticed the cartridge with the complete bullet appeared to be a misfire having been struck by a single firing pin. One or the other of similar rifles had two firing pins. That should help narrow it doown some. Monty

 

[dirtfisher1127]

Re: more "several unknowns"

I'm just the opposite of cannonball guy. I like to see my cartridges measured in inches rather than in metrics. Bukt thanks to thke many conversion tables I can usually figure it out. But here in America USA the actual bukllet itself is often expressed in metric meassures suich as the 6mm and 7mm- 08 Remington, 6.5mm Magnum, etc. Over the years I have learned to equate them with something I recognize. I noticed the cartridge with the complete bullet appeared to be a misfire having been struck by a single firing pin. One or the other of similar rifles had two firing pins. That should help narrow it doown some. Monty

Thanks for all your help, Monty! Jack.

 

[Monty]

Re: more "several unknowns"

My God! I just reread my last post and I am still am having trouble with this darn ultra sensitive key board. And I have a broken finger on the "K" so it may skhow ukp anywhere! See what I mean? M nty

 

[CC Hunter]

Re: more "several unknowns"

Monty,

That's OK....K.....k....

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Re: more "several unknowns"

Monty wrote:
> I'm just the opposite of cannonball guy. I like to see my cartridges measured in inches rather than in metrics.

Actually, you and I are much more alike than opposite.
1- Same as you, I greatly prefer measurements to be in inches rather than millimeters/centimeters.
2- Same as you, I have to use a Metric-to-Standard calculator/table to do the conversion.

The ONLY reason I asked Dirtfisher for millimeter measurement is that his photos of the mystery-cartridge show his Caliper is the metric-measurement kind. Thus, I figured there was no point in asking him to give us precise inch-type measurements, such as .536-inch.

 

[CC Hunter]

Re: more "several unknowns"

As near as I can see, the brass casing on the mystery cartridge is not actually thicker, as it is merely rolled over on the top. Looks like a Spencer cartridge that maybe got jammed in something. Not sure if a rifle malfunction could cause this, or it was done by someone fooling around with the cartridge.

CC Hunter

 

[dirtfisher1127]

Re: more "several unknowns"

As near as I can see, the brass casing on the mystery cartridge is not actually thicker, as it is merely rolled over on the top. Looks like a Spencer cartridge that maybe got jammed in something. Not sure if a rifle malfunction could cause this, or it was done by someone fooling around with the cartridge.

CC Hunter

Thanks for that information, CC. I was going to ask if anyone had an intact Spencer to weigh for comparison, but with very little lead left in this one, I guess that would be useless.

 

[kenley]

Re: more "several unknowns"

Monty;
I rough out the caliber/mm thinggy by using the"4" method. mm x 4 = pretty close caliber.
7.62mm=.30
9mm=.36 (or .357/.38)
11.25 = .45