More "bail-ins" going on

[jim4silver]

As usual very little MSM coverage from what I can see, but here are two articles that discuss how bondholders, etc. are having their "investments" affected so as to save some institution.

This personally does not "bother" me like when they take actual savings accounts because bonds, like stocks, are investment vehicles in a sense and subject to fluctuating markets and losses, etc. Unfortunately what is going on with the Italy bondholders is not really a market fluctuation but a counter party refusing to comply with the terms normally associated with owning bonds: like getting paid interest.

I guess they should add another possible way to lose your initial investment's value to the list of warnings to investors in the legal boilerplate when you invest: possible bail ins?

Here is one from Italy. Just a month or so ago they talked about another gov bail out for the bank, I guess they decided against that? Old article then newer one announcing stoppage of payments to certain bondholders (instead of another gov bailout?)

Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com


Monte Paschi Halts Coupon Payments on 3 Subordinated Notes (1) - Businessweek


Poland is getting in on the act to it appears.

Polish Bail-In Changes Everything

Yes my silver and gold may lose value due to rigged markets, but at least I'll have the underlying metal in my possession.

All just my opinion.

Jim

 

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[Marchas45]

As usual very little MSM coverage from what I can see, but here are two articles that discuss how bondholders, etc. are having their "investments" affected so as to save some institution.

This personally does not "bother" me like when they take actual savings accounts because bonds, like stocks, are investment vehicles in a sense and subject to fluctuating markets and losses, etc. Unfortunately what is going on with the Italy bondholders is not really a market fluctuation but a counter party refusing to comply with the terms normally associated with owning bonds: like getting paid interest.

I guess they should add another possible way to lose your initial investment's value to the list of warnings to investors in the legal boilerplate when you invest: possible bail ins?

Here is one from Italy. Just a month or so ago they talked about another gov bail out for the bank, I guess they decided against that? Old article then newer one announcing stoppage of payments to certain bondholders (instead of another gov bailout?)

Business & Financial News, Breaking US & International News | Reuters.com


Monte Paschi Halts Coupon Payments on 3 Subordinated Notes (1) - Businessweek


Poland is getting in on the act to it appears.

Polish Bail-In Changes Everything

Yes my silver and gold may lose value due to rigged markets, but at least I'll have the underlying metal in my possession.

All just my opinion.

Jim

But Jim aren't the Bail In's in Italy, on Interest only? Charlie

 

[jim4silver]

Yes Charlie that is what it says. However, it would still be taking away a property right of another (the bond holder's right to receive the agreed upon interest payment) while the institution is allowed to carry on business as usual. I don't know if that is what the bank is doing but from what I read in the article it seems to be doing that.

In a normal bankruptcy situation the entity or institution going bankrupt also is dissolved. In all of these various "bail-in" situations however the entity who is out of cash doesn't go bankrupt but uses other peoples' money or stops paying a liability to help it, the institution, stay afloat while the creditor gets property taken without adequate compensation (I am basing this on past articles I have read).

Further, I am not comparing the severity of the above situation to one like in Cyprus where actual deposit accounts were taken, but the idea of it is still as bad to me. Bondholders should assume risk, but that risk shouldn't be that they won't receive interest payments short of an actual bankruptcy.

Just my opinion.

Jim

 

[TheCoinKid]

In a normal bankruptcy situation the entity or institution going bankrupt also is dissolved. In all of these various "bail-in" situations however the entity who is out of cash doesn't go bankrupt but uses other peoples' money or stops paying a liability to help it, the institution, stay afloat while the creditor gets property taken without adequate compensation (I am basing this on past articles I have read).

Isn't this similar to Chapter 11 of the US Federal Bankruptcy Code?

 

[Marchas45]

Yea I agree 100% with your deductions and yes it's not as severe as Greece but it also may be a trial run. :lol:

 

[jim4silver]

Isn't this similar to Chapter 11 of the US Federal Bankruptcy Code?

No.

A Chapter 11 requires the entity to make some payments to creditors if their plan is approved. This would be similar to a chapter 13 for individuals where you get to keep your assets but you have to pay something to the creditors over time. If you want a clean break you do a chapter 7 but don't get to keep much in way of assets depending on what state you live in.

In the bail ins from what I have read they take but don't give too much to the "creditors".

http://bankruptcy.findlaw.com/chapt...1-WhatIs&HBX_PK=what+is+chapter+11+bankruptcy

Just my opinion.

Jim

 

[TheCoinKid]

A Chapter 11 requires the entity to make some payments to creditors if their plan is approved. This would be similar to a chapter 13 for individuals where you get to keep your assets but you have to pay something to the creditors over time.

Not trying to put too fine of a point on it, but in Chapter 11, secured creditors generally make concessions to their property rights, in exchange for a reorg. plan that minimizes their losses. Unsecured creditors have very little of a voice and come out much worse. How is this, in substance, different than:

"In all of these various "bail-in" situations however the entity who is out of cash doesn't go bankrupt but uses other peoples' money or stops paying a liability to help it, the institution, stay afloat while the creditor gets property taken without adequate compensation"

Not challenging you, just trying to understand.

TCK

 

[jim4silver]

Not trying to put too fine of a point on it, but in Chapter 11, secured creditors generally make concessions to their property rights, in exchange for a reorg. plan that minimizes their losses. Unsecured creditors have very little of a voice and come out much worse. How is this, in substance, different than:

"In all of these various "bail-in" situations however the entity who is out of cash doesn't go bankrupt but uses other peoples' money or stops paying a liability to help it, the institution, stay afloat while the creditor gets property taken without adequate compensation"

Not challenging you, just trying to understand.

TCK

TCK,

I am not an expert on any of this. I was just stating my opinion bail ins are bad. I could very well be wrong on all of this.


Jim

 

[TheCoinKid]

Thanks,

I know a fair amount about the Federal Bankruptcy Code, but almost nothing about "bail-ins." Just trying to differentiate in my head.

TCK

 

[jim4silver]

Here is a recent article that explains what is going on in various countries via "bail ins".

Cyprus-Style Wealth Confiscation Is Now Starting To Happen All Over The Globe | SilverDoctors.com


Jim

 

[jim4silver]

I wonder what will become of this? Hopefully it is nothing to worry about.

*Breaking: Panama Announces 5 Day Bank Holiday! Bail-in Imminent? | SilverDoctors.com

Jim

 

[Marchas45]

Hey Jim they say the banks are closing from Friday afternoon and opening on Tuesday and they gave the people plenty of time to get some money out but it will be rough for the people that are on paycheck to paycheck.
I don't think there is anything in this story but we shall see. Charlie Keep Stacking.

 

[jim4silver]

Hey Jim they say the banks are closing from Friday afternoon and opening on Tuesday and they gave the people plenty of time to get some money out but it will be rough for the people that are on paycheck to paycheck.
I don't think there is anything in this story but we shall see. Charlie Keep Stacking.

If they gave advance notice this is a total NON issue. The site where I found the article said they gave no advance notice.

Jim

 

[Marchas45]

If they gave advance notice this is a total NON issue. The site where I found the article said they gave no advance notice.

Jim

Here is one quote looking for more.
Panama National Bank

PRESS / File

BNP reported that on Saturday 28 and Sunday September 29 will stop using Banconal key cards.



09/26/2013 – From noon tomorrow, Friday, September 27, until Monday, September 30, the National Bank of Panama (BNP) suspended its services to implement Phase II of the process of updating its technology platform . reported that BNP on Saturday 28 and Sunday September 29 will stop using key cards at ATMs Banconal both the entity, and the rest of the banking network across the country. For this situation, reported that ACH transactions received through Online Banking on Friday until noon on Monday will be processed on Tuesday, October 1.

 

[Marchas45]

Here's more Jim, they had plenty of notice, Scare Tactic Story by the Doc. Charlie

PrometeyBezkrilov says:
September 27, 2013 at 3:31 PM

I thought the Chinese were planning to build a new canal through Nicaragua, did they not? Second of all, you people need to use your own brain and your own investigations. https://www.banconal.com.pa/
Avatar of Jccjktj Jccjktj says:
September 27, 2013 at 3:39 PM

@PrometeyBezkrilov
Being a patronising dickhead isn’t a good look.
Avatar of PrometeyBezkrilov PrometeyBezkrilov says:
September 27, 2013 at 3:41 PM

Here is the translation:
The National Bank of Panama reports that next Friday September 27 branches across the country will be open only until 12:00 noon. Also, on Saturday 28 and Monday September 30 our branches will be closed.
Our ATM’s, debit card use Banconal of sales points and shops, in addition to banking services and infovoz Online will be unavailable on Saturday 28 and Sunday 29 September.
These suspensions of services are required to implement Phase 2 of the upgrade process of the technological platform of the entity.

 

[jim4silver]

The story about a proposed 10% tax (haircut across the board?) on savings in Euroland is being reported a bit recently. I don't know if the story and allegations are true or not, but if they are it would be further proof that supports my view that someday these "bail ins" will be the way they balance things out so to speak after some big crash(es) occur down the road (think bank accounts, pension funds, etc.).

The article attached below came out a week or so ago and I think provides an interesting view of what supposedly is being proposed. In any event clearly in places where bail ins would occur would be places where it is smart to own some PMs.
Just my opinion.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article42669.html

Jim