Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

[chukers]

Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

I know this is a medal from a war... not sure exactly what it is... I am hoping some of you guys may have some ideas...

Thanks
Chukers

 

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[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

It is a German Iron Cross from World War II, generally awarded for bravery or leadership during battle.

Of course, you saw the swastikas.

I wish I knew exactly what this was awarded for....whether this is for a certain campaign, front or, battle.

 

[Red James Cash]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

Looks like you have an iron cross 2nd class


Iron Cross
World War II Iron Cross 2nd Class
World War II Iron Cross 1st Class

The standard 1939 Iron Cross was issued in the following two grades:

* Iron Cross 2nd Class (Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse)
* Iron Cross 1st Class (Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse) (abbreviated as EKI or E.K.I.)

[5]

The Iron Cross was awarded for bravery in battle as well as other military contributions in a battlefield environment.

The Iron Cross 2nd Class came with a ribbon and was worn in one of two different methods:

* When in formal dress, the entire cross was worn mounted alone or as part of a medal bar.
* For everyday wear, only the ribbon was worn from the second hole in the tunic button.

The Iron Cross First Class was a pin-on medal with no ribbon and was worn centered on a uniform breast pocket, either on dress uniforms or everyday outfit. It was a progressive award, with the second class having to be earned before the first class and so on for the higher degrees.

It is estimated that some four and a half million Second Class Iron Crosses were awarded in the Second World War, and 300,000 of the First Class.[6] Two Iron Cross First Class recipients were women, one of whom was test pilot Hanna Reitsch. One of the Muslim SS members to receive the award was SS Obersturmführer Imam Halim Malkoć, and was granted the Iron Cross (Second Class) in October 1943 for his role in suppressing the Villefranche-de-Rouergue mutiny. He, together with several other Bosnian Muslims, was decorated with the EK. II personally by Himmler in the days after the mutiny. Because of his muslim faith, only wore the ribbon, and not the cross.

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

I can't wait to learn what the top badge represents exactly.

The crossed grenade and sword under the German eagle tell me this is definitely a battlefield related award for bravery.

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

WOW thanks for such a detailed explanation! I really wasn't expecting that... Thank you so much... now as far as value... the only reason I ask that is because it has no significant meaning to me and I may want to sell it in the near future... From time to time I must sell my treasures to justify and fuel my hobby... you all know how that works.


Chukers

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

First, let me say that I am NOT an expert in this field.

Here is the bad news...there have been umpteen million fakes and reproductions of this Nazi medal in the past that it is going need to be studied to determine if it is an original. Some of the fakes, counterfeits and re-pops have been very, very good over the years.

You should see some maker's mark on the back side of the cross, as well as the badge. I think that there should be a number, like 21 on the back, and that will tell you who the manufacturer was....I think. This alone won't determine that it is original, but it will be a step in the right direction. I've been told that some of the Nazi fakes have the same exact markings on the back as the originals.

I know absolutely nothing about the badge...it will be cool to learn about it.

BTW, does your Iron Cross have "EK 1" on the front of it?

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

I've been studying your Iron Cross for a few minutes...

I don't think the top badge with the German eagle holding a swastika and the crossed grenade and sword is related to the Iron Cross.

It didn't look right when I first saw it, and I'm not sure I've ever seen an Iron Cross worn that way. My first thoughts were "why is that ribbon so long?? I wonder if it is stretched? It just looks odd."

I now think you have two separate medals. The Iron Cross, and a different type of combat badge, most likely Wehrmacht (German Army). If you were saving any of the medals off of a uniform, those would have been two of the best to save.

Is the medal an Infantry Assault Combat badge??

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

Okay, here is what you have...

You have an Iron Cross from WW II Nazi Germany. I, too, think it is a second class Iron Cross, unless it has EK 1 on the front.

The second item with the crossed grenade and sword is a Close Combat Bar, also from Nazi Germany. It looks like your medal is bronze, so that mean that the soldier that it was awarded to served at least 15 days in a close combat situation.

Here is some more info:http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges/heer/close_combat_bar.htm

If it is an authentic badge, that is very cool.

Hope this helps.

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

On closer examination, I see that the 'sword' I kept referring to is actually a bayonet for a Mauser, I think.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

yup Iron cross second class, (EK1 has a pin, or screwback and knights cross has a different hanger loop) and close combat clasp. They are two separate medals. Not all iron crosses are marked.....there were many different makers for them. If there is a makers mark it will be on the silver rim of the cross or on the loop. Someone already posted a link to the wehrmacht awards forum, post detailed pics there and those guys will be able to authenticate them for you. The combat clasp is potentially worth a good bit of money if original. and the cross while not as valuable, is still worth a good amount as well.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/iron_cross/2nd_1st_class/2nd_class/ironcross_2.htm

http://www.snyderstreasures.com/pages/germanbadges.htm

You're looking at a minimum 400 dollars in medals if they're authentic. and possibly over 1100 depending on the maker of the clasp.....

 

[Red James Cash]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

chukers

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

ok let me add to the story... it was found under a tree 15 years ago by a metal detector exactly as you see it in the picture. It has the 1939 on the front and the 1813 on the back but I do not see an EK1 on the iron cross medal.

On the close combat medal there are some similar inscriptions to the links you all posted but not exact... so I'm told... so, I'll go take some pictures in the next few days of close up of the front and backs of theses medals... maybe you can confirm what it is or isn't... as far as the 6 inch long ribbon attaching the two medals I don't have a clue but this is the way it was found.

Thank you for all your help... this is exactly why I became a member of this board, all the passion for the things we find come out when we help each other identify and encourage each other when we find things of interest! I so do appreciate it.

Now if its authentic and worth as much as it sounds, this piece will be for sale in the near future... how do you suggest I do that? What is the best way to sell something like this? again... thank you so much for your help.

Chukers

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

if you can get the wehrmacht awards forum guys to authenticate them, ask them about selling. I'm sure at least a few of them would be interested.

The cross as I said is a 2cd class, take a loupe and look at the silver rim of the cross near the loop, and the loop itself, that's where you'll find any markings. These were basically made by jewelry makers, so the stamping will be similar. It would help to know the markings on the back of the clasp.

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

if you can get the wehrmacht awards forum guys to authenticate them, ask them about selling. I'm sure at least a few of them would be interested.

The cross as I said is a 2cd class, take a loupe and look at the silver rim of the cross near the loop, and the loop itself, that's where you'll find any markings. These were basically made by jewelry makers, so the stamping will be similar. It would help to know the markings on the back of the clasp.

Good Idea... I signed up waiting for activation... tomorrow I'll get some close up shots. Thanks for the Ideas!

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value?

ok here are the close up I got of both medals.. Apparently the top medal was hand sewn to one side of the ribbon... for what reson I don't know... there is no initials or inscriptions other than what you see int he pictures... so what now? What do you all think?


Chukers

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

The cross looks right to me, I found another clasp by that maker online, yours worries me a bit due to the rough finish on the back side, but then again I haven't collected that kind of thing in many years, and that might not be a problem. Having said that, there are a lot of high quality (hate to use that term) fakes out there. The other forum is definitely the best bet for having people with years of knowledge look at them. Be sure to post the results, I'd be interested to know.

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

The cross looks right to me, I found another clasp by that maker online, yours worries me a bit due to the rough finish on the back side, but then again I haven't collected that kind of thing in many years, and that might not be a problem. Having said that, there are a lot of high quality (hate to use that term) fakes out there. The other forum is definitely the best bet for having people with years of knowledge look at them. Be sure to post the results, I'd be interested to know.

The fact that it was found in the ground with a metal detector and that the top metal is hand stitched into the ribbon... I would think it's authentic just by it's cercumstances. I am no expert and have signed up on that forum looking for help, so we shall see..,

Chukers

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

There's one thing i'm absolutely certain about...that stitching was definately done by a man!

I think it's the real deal, taken as a trophy from a body and brought back to the US, then maybe dumped/ thrown away when it became a bad thing to have something like that where society was concerned.

 

[clovis97]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

You must have dug that thing in a very dry climate, and it couldn't have been in the ground very long. If that would have been in the ground in Indiana, the ribbon would have rotten away, and the metals would have been destroyed.

I am looking forward to hearing from collectors on the other forum.

Will you promise to update us on the authenticity?

 

[chukers]

Re: Military Experts needed... ID? Age? & Value? (NEW PICTURES!!!)

here is what some of those guys over there said....

"I believe you have a good EK II and a good close combat clasp here, what you do with them from here is up to you."

"Your EK2 is authentic. It's hard to judge based on the photos, but it may be by maker 27, Maria Schenkl. It is in essentially relic condition"

"Both are period originals. As far as price for them if you are looking to sell I would guess the CCC(Close Combat Clasp) is worth around $325.00 and the EK_2 (Iron Cross) around $85.00"


That is about it... I got 2 e-mails from someone asking to buy it but no offer yet... They deal with ones that have no corrosion on them and are in mint condition... I've had the post on there for over a week and I'm not getting much help... probably because I'm not a paid member.

Chukers