Midwest stream bedrock question

[JHuck]

As part of my growing interest in prospecting, I've been looking at satellite images of local streams in Central Indiana and I came across a remote section of a stream that has 100 or so feet of fissured bedrock that forms one side of the stream bank and it appears to slope down into the bed. I'm thinking the cracks in the rock would be a good place to start above and below the current water line. Is this correct? Luckily this section of stream is navigable so it appears to fall outside of needing to get any landowners' permission.

 

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[Kuntzy]

Best to get permission from landowners. Gotta have written permission to prospect private land in Indiana.

 

[SchoolOfHardRocks]

Great place to look yes!!! If theres gold there youll find some in that bedrock!

 

[russau]

You need to read the laws for this in Indiana . Chuck Lassiter has them on his site at www.midwestprospector.com Better to be safe than sorry! Do yourself a favor and print them out for if-n-when the time comes to show them!citations of ANY kind are NO FUN !

 

[JHuck]

Thanks for the input everyone. I've determined that the section of stream is considered navigable based on the county it's located in. Streams that are considered navigable in the state of Indiana do not require permission to be used by landowners because the beds of these waters are held in title by the State of Indiana; those beds are not owned by the abutting riparian owners. The DNR rules for navigable waters state "(2) Written permission needs to be obtained from any affected riparian owner"(i.e. crossing their land to get the stream). Because the line of demarcation between the owners and the state is the natural high water line, I don't see a requirement to get permission from riparian owners because I will not be impacting them on their land, I will only be in the riverbed below the high water line. Indiana Riparian Rights and Water Boundaries | Schneider Corp

Please let me know if anyone has heard otherwise from the Indiana DNR.

I will have a copy of the rules on hand just in case someone tries to challenge me while I prospect.

 

[Jimmydolittle]

Rules for prospecting Indiana: http://www.in.gov/dnr/water/files/wa-Gold-prospecting-rules.pdf

 

[Hoser John]

What s sick world when such a simple non destructive method of mining draws 2 sets of regulations as posted.Absolutely no rhyme or reason just legaleze to get $$$$$$.Hope you find a bloody ton-John

 

[dave wiseman]

You still would have to have a public access to the water?

 

[NW-INDIANA-PROSPECTOR]

Thanks for the input everyone. I've determined that the section of stream is considered navigable based on the county it's located in. Streams that are considered navigable in the state of Indiana do not require permission to be used by landowners because the beds of these waters are held in title by the State of Indiana; those beds are not owned by the abutting riparian owners. The DNR rules for navigable waters state "(2) Written permission needs to be obtained from any affected riparian owner"(i.e. crossing their land to get the stream). Because the line of demarcation between the owners and the state is the natural high water line, I don't see a requirement to get permission from riparian owners because I will not be impacting them on their land, I will only be in the riverbed below the high water line. Indiana Riparian Rights and Water Boundaries | Schneider Corp

Please let me know if anyone has heard otherwise from the Indiana DNR.

I will have a copy of the rules on hand just in case someone tries to challenge me while I prospect.

Where are you in *Indiana...

 

[DizzyDigger]

Huck, how do you plan to access the navigable waters? You will need
landowner permission if you have to cross private property to reach
those waters, and to not do so is trespassing.

Can you hike or float down to the area from a public boat launch?

 

[JHuck]

Huck, how do you plan to access the navigable waters? You will need
landowner permission if you have to cross private property to reach
those waters, and to not do so is trespassing.

Can you hike or float down to the area from a public boat launch?

I plan on paddling down. The spot is 8/10 of a mile from a county road bridge. I've already checked plat maps and the county easement allows plenty of room to enter the water from the rip rap next to the bridge. I plan on taking our stand up paddle board to the area to check things out tomorrow.

 

[JHuck]

Where are you in *Indiana...

I live in Boone County.

 

[JHuck]

You still would have to have a public access to the water?

A county bridge with wide easement is nearby. I have a picture of the easement boundaries on my phone in case questions arise.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Using/accessing the water and removing material are not the same thing.

 

[Nitric]

Wow, I don't know the laws, but have mixed thoughts on this.......The "passage" type rights? I agree with conceptualizednetherlandr...

I also agree with Hoser Jon(if I read that right) On public land. But on private land? If you were fishing, standing in the water that might be one thing, but to dig around might be another, if a ticked off land owner shows up.

To give an example, the stream in my avatar, I own one side, I can't really say a whole lot, but further up, I own both sides. It cuts through the land quite a ways. If I understand it right? That makes a difference too. I don't care who owns the water, I own the ground under it. I as a land owner could care less what people do as long as they don't destroy anything or leave trash, but there are other people that would be very upset!! And if I lived there that might be a different story. I've seen canoes and jet skis way up in some of the small creeks feeding it when the water is really flowing. Technically, they aren't allowed in there, but who cares they aren't hurting anything...Now that is a whole different state too.....

What I'm getting at? Wouldn't it just be easier to locate the land owner and ask? If you explain what you are doing, they may even help you! Just much easier that way.....This also depends on the size of the stream too!! Just sometimes for what it's worth , it's better to make a friend out of the land owner, than to show a bunch of paper to him if he shows up.

I don't know the laws, I'm just saying what I'm thinking..

 

[JHuck]

Using/accessing the water and removing material are not the same thing.

If the material comes from a state owned stream bed and the DNR allows removal, what is the issue?

 

[Nitric]

If the material comes from a state owned stream bed and the DNR allows removal, what is the issue?

Is this state or private land?

Because from what I just read in the one link, you need property owners permission on private land. Unless I read that wrong?

They may not own the water, the fish, or be able to keep you from passing through, or standing in the middle of the water fishing, But you can't just float in on a surf board or whatever and start digging! Most land owners may not care, but some do!

If DNR owned? the link says they don't allow it.

Anyhow, I may understand it wrong!! Have fun! Good luck! Hope you find something in the bedrock!!! I have to admit, when younger? I would have probably just went for it! Not promoting that, just being honest!

I notice a huge difference between ohio and Ga on this, In Ohio if a farmer saw you playing in his stream he'd wander over to ask just out of curiosity and conversation and turn saying "good luck hope you find something" . Very few got upset,if you weren't hurting anything, but here in GA? It's a big deal!! Might even get shot at! They take property serious here!!!! Neither is right or wrong, just different areas, are different!

 

[JHuck]

I appreciate everyone's input on this topic as I'm sure it is the hot button for prospecting. Before I go to the effort of talking to nearby landowners, I want to make sure I understand my rights for prospecting this particular location. What I've learned so far from reading the Indiana DNR rules along with other information that provides more clarity is this:

1. This particular part of the stream is state owned. This is very clearly stated on the Indiana navigable streams list for the particular location I'm looking at. Navigable waters are state owned up to the ordinary high water mark. I have heard this topic come up before from a guy who walks this stream to fish. One county over, the stream hasn't been deemed navigable so if you want to walk it, you need to get every property owners' permission because the stream is considered their property. For this reason, the fisherman starts in the county in which the stream is considered navigable. He can walk the stream catching fish and no permission is needed. A possible issue that could come up is the property owners may not be aware of this rule.

2. Below is the state rule wording for navigable waterways as it pertains to prospecting. As much as we all like reading lawyer speak, I think it's important to list them because otherwise we can debate opinion and hearsay forever.

(c) Without a written license or notice to the department, and except as provided in subsection (d), a
person may engage in prospecting within the ordinary high watermark of a navigable waterway upon
compliance with each of the following conditions:
(1) Lawful ingress to and egress from the navigable waterway is obtained. I am entering from a county bridge easement and then floating downstream on state property.
(2) Written permission is obtained from any affected riparian owner. This is the one rule that is gray to me. What does "affected" mean? Riparian owner means ownership to the ordinary high water mark. If I dredge into the bank above the high water mark, I am definitely impacting their land (not going to do this). Does panning in the state owned stream bed mean I am affecting their land? In my mind no. Thinking about a different situation, people who own lake front property on state lakes are riparian owners too (down to the shore). If I'm 10 feet from shore and I want to dive down in a state owned lake to look for geodes, would I be impacting them? If I move a bunch of material decreasing the water quality and making an sand bar by their dock, then I would say I am impacting them. If I dive down, wave my hands and uncover a rock, then no. Like many property questions, things are up to interpretation. This is obvious when you see all the court cases tied to property disputes. Looking at satellite images over the past 5 years, this particular area of the stream has changed significantly. The bedrock that currently shows up was under a large sandbar 3-4 years ago. I would say my panning would have very little impact on their land compared to the natural erosion and deposition that occurs here. I would actually like to talk with someone at the DNR about this particular topic.
(3) Prospecting is performed exclusively by one (1) or a combination of the following processes:
(A) Without the use of equipment.
(B) With the use of nonmotorized equipment, such as a pan, sluice box, or pick and shovel.
(C) With the use of suction equipment, including motorized equipment, having a hand-operated
nozzle that has an opening not larger than five (5) inches in diameter.
Basically you can use things ranging from your hands to a 5" dredge
(4) No mercury or other chemicals are used to assist with the recovery of hard mineral resources. Not an issue
(5) Activities occur exclusively between sunrise and sunset. Fine
(6) No mussels are taken as prescribed by 312 IAC 9-9-3. Fine
(7) No endangered species are taken as prescribed by IC 14-22-34-12 Fine
Section D ties to disqualified waterways, this isn't one of them.

My plan is to float down the stream, and check out the area. If it looks promising, I'll try to find someone within the DNR who can better define impacted riparian owner. I will then decide if I need/want to get the blessing of the riparian owner.

 

[Nitric]

Here is another thing to consider when weighing this out, or trying to define laws that are a little grey.....What are the possible consequences?

I also see your point about the laws, I read more on that last night and....You may be right! According to the one link, you have to stay 50 ft or a quarter of the water way from the property. If that link is correct....

I know you are chasing law, I also know what I would have personally done at one time, But I have this thing with private property, whether it be a claim,or whatever. This is what might eventually cause it all to go off limits, By law. When people start pushing "their rights" on a property owner. I personally do not agree, And just out of principle? Would probably fight it or make it real rough on someone throwing that around in the middle of my land if I asked them to leave. If I was in that mood. But on the flip side, I respect property owners and if were confronted, legal or not through a stack of rules and laws, would probably apologize and move on instead of reciting some laws. This also depends on the size of the stream too!

Is it hurting anything? Hell no, and most people would care less! I walked creeks for miles and looking at rocks, arrowheads and whatever, I was only confronted once in a negative way, and after talking and the guy calmed down, he was fine. He was just worried more than anything.

How you treat people when confronted goes a long way too!! Reciting laws? Might not be the way to do it in cases like this.

Then back to...What are the consequences, probably not much, if your peaceful. Worse case is asked to leave.

Anyhow, just my ramblings, law or not, I'm kind of mixed on this subject. They give you more rights to be doing it on private property,without permission, than they do on public? THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME!!!!

Not that any of it hurts a thing! I get that....I'm a "Rights" guy too!! But property Rights out weigh, on this stuff in my mind, I feel the owner should have complete say on what goes on, on his land in these cases.

 

[JHuck]

Here is another thing to consider when weighing this out, or trying to define laws that are a little grey.....What are the possible consequences?

I also see your point about the laws, I read more on that last night and....You may be right! According to the one link, you have to stay 50 ft or a quarter of the water way from the property. If that link is correct....

I know you are chasing law, I also know what I would have personally done at one time, But I have this thing with private property, whether it be a claim,or whatever. This is what might eventually cause it all to go off limits, By law. When people start pushing "their rights" on a property owner. I personally do not agree, And just out of principle? Would probably fight it or make it real rough on someone throwing that around in the middle of my land if I asked them to leave. If I was in that mood. But on the flip side, I respect property owners and if were confronted, legal or not through a stack of rules and laws, would probably apologize and move on instead of reciting some laws. This also depends on the size of the stream too!

Is it hurting anything? Hell no, and most people would care less! I walked creeks for miles and looking at rocks, arrowheads and whatever, I was only confronted once in a negative way, and after talking and the guy calmed down, he was fine. He was just worried more than anything.

How you treat people when confronted goes a long way too!! Reciting laws? Might not be the way to do it in cases like this.

Then back to...What are the consequences, probably not much, if your peaceful. Worse case is asked to leave.

Anyhow, just my ramblings, law or not, I'm kind of mixed on this subject. They give you more rights to be doing it on private property,without permission, than they do on public? THAT MAKES NO SENSE TO ME!!!!

Not that any of it hurts a thing! I get that....I'm a "Rights" guy too!! But property Rights out weigh, on this stuff in my mind, I feel the owner should have complete say on what goes on, on his land in these cases.

Nitric,
I'm in total alignment with your thinking. I'm more of the type to try to catch flies with honey instead of using vinegar. However I will say I lean a bit more toward asking for forgiveness vs begging for permission. From a law standpoint, there are so many places out west that my family can no longer camp in because the land has become private and restrictions are strictly enforced. On the flip side, if I can access land because the law is in my favor, then I went to exercise my rights.

At the end of the day, if I was approached by a nearby landowner I would be cordial and communicate openly. I wouldn't start referencing legal rules unless I needed to. Today I'm just hoping to dodge some thunderstorms so my daughter and I can take look at the site.