Maybe some fresh eyes on a old question... What are these "mud mounds"?

[Limitool]

Hello members.... Long ago I had a long thread sharing a cave I found behind my home here in Middle TN. I attached a T-Net link below for anyone who has a lot of time to review if interested. There's many photo's. I'm posting now to see if possibly some new members might have some new ideas that haven't been thought of yet. I'm just curious about how these mud mounds got formed, some symbols upon them and the one that is so far back deep in the cave it's hard to believe it's there..... but it is..!

All of these mounds are in shallow hard to reach places. No standing is possible near any of them. Only viewable lying on your stomach or side. And they go to within a few inches of the cave roof. A small shallow creek runs down the cave floor by them. I've crawled back into this cave 1.5 hours deep. The stream starts from an artisan well WAY back deep from within the cave. It's about a 3' round well. From the bottom of stream to the ceiling averages about 3' high only. The width is between 2' to 15' throughout most of cave till the very back.

One college professor said they were sediment casts from saltpeter mining during the war of 1812. After researching this that seems an impossible task because there would be no way to load them due to the ceiling. And I've ran a powerful magnet, a MD and pin pointer all around them and not a single nail or wire was found. The mounds closest to the front are hard to reach let alone work in for saltpeter mining. And the small very squared up one way back is brutal to reach with a flashlight let alone holding a torch. It takes at least 45 minutes to reach the furthest one in back. There's clearly a tunnel going back behind it also for a long ways. But to enter the tunnel the mound would have to be destroyed. Some folks have said there all natural mounds but how many of us have EVER seen 5 squared up mud mounds made by mother nature...? The 3rd mound from front has symbols etched into it. A wavy figure on the left side with a smaller symbol to it's lower left. On the right side is what appears to be a H, L, R. The way there etched doesn't appear to be a "normal" initial etching to me. One member here said look at Ruin writing. A perfect match for all 3.... But is this right? And what is or does the small symbol represent? And behind this 3rd mound up front is a tunnel also going way back. But the only way to explore it is to destroy the mound. I attached some pics to review here and there's many on the old thread. I'm just hoping possibly someone might have a new idea or thought.... Anyone?

Metal Detectiing TN. cave / Anybody done this?

 

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[DizzyDigger]

From the images, it almost makes them look like boulders they had to excavate around rather than remove them.

 

[Limitool]

From the images, it almost makes them look like boulders they had to excavate around rather than remove them.

Well I can assure all their was no excavation going on. They may appear "like boulders" but their made out of 100% mud. How do I know...? I took some old high quality X7 arrow shafts back and pierced around the base and 100% threw the mounds. I just NEVER wanted or desired to destroy them to see what's behind the 2 with the tunnels.

 

[searcher]

You mention saltpeter mining.
Was this a bat cave at one time? Or still?

Is there or was there saltpeter mines near here?

 

[Limitool]

You mention saltpeter mining.
Was this a bat cave at one time? Or still?

Is there or was there saltpeter mines near here?

When you ask "here" you mean near this area? I understand KY. and TN did a lot of saltpeter mining in the "day". As far as bats I've been back their dozens of times and only have seen them a few times. 1-2 near the entrance. I saw 1 at the tale end of my deepest venture 30 years ago. As far as past history of bats I have no clue or idea. But nobody would build a single vat 45 minutes deep in that hostile enviroment. The mounds upfront show no sign of any past vats being built or evidence of them. Nor could anyone load them where the mounds are located.

 

[searcher]

When you ask "here" you mean near this area? I understand KY. and TN did a lot of saltpeter mining in the "day". As far as bats I've been back their dozens of times and only have seen them a few times. 1-2 near the entrance. I saw 1 at the tale end of my deepest venture 30 years ago. As far as past history of bats I have no clue or idea. But nobody would build a single vat 45 minutes deep in that hostile enviroment. The mounds upfront show no sign of any past vats being built or evidence of them. Nor could anyone load them where the mounds are located.

Here= The cave.
Not thinking of vats at all.
Bat caves were mined for guano that would then be taken somewhere else to be kiln dried/toasted and then soaked in vats to extract the nitrates(saltpeter).
It doesn't matter how high or low the ceiling is as long as you can scoop and bag the poop.
On your belly if need be.
Some areas in a bat cave have mounds of old guano that is not good for extraction. Those are left to rot or moved to get to the good stuff.
I know because I have worked on the same property that has a vast cave that was used for nitrate mining during the civil war. Kiln on site, vats near-by. Been inside and all around. Talked with the scientists etc.. etc.
Your mounds may not be old guano but It's what I thought of initially.

As far as the ceiling being too low to load-
I've been in an old mine that was so narrow that I had to inchworm with my arms over my head so I could fit into the entrance and along the passage(not fat...) It would eventually get wider so I could sit up and knee crawl. But that's as big as it got. Someone took material out of there.

 

[searcher]

You say there's a stream flowing through this cave.
Could the cave have filled with mud and then been washed out by the artesian spring opening up underground?
Big gush of water and then it went to a small stream?
I'd probably have to see it to form a proper opinion...oh well.

 

[Limitool]

You say there's a stream flowing through this cave.
Could the cave have filled with mud and then been washed out by the artesian spring opening up underground?
Big gush of water and then it went to a small stream?
I'd probably have to see it to form a proper opinion...oh well.

That maybe happened at some point in the distant past.... but the photo on 1st post showing the "Very Seculded Mound" (with flashlight) is closest to the artisan well. And it would not have retained the squared up shape you see. I'd really like to know what's behind it or where that tunnel leads. But it would have to be destroyed to even try.

 

[Bucket Lister]

Have you tried asking on any dedicated caving/spelunking forums, or the Spelunking / Caves forum here?

Spelunking / Caves

There are natural and man made treasures to be found in caves. Discuss spelunking and caves here.

www.treasurenet.com

That's where I'd start.

 

[Limitool]

Have you tried asking on any dedicated caving/spelunking forums, or the Spelunking / Caves forum here?

Spelunking / Caves

There are natural and man made treasures to be found in caves. Discuss spelunking and caves here.

www.treasurenet.com

That's where I'd start.

I sure have Bucket Lister and treasure signs and such hoping for an I.D. for the symbols. I've contacted College Professors, other spelunking forums and private individuals who are renowned for caving.... not a single solid answer that makes sense.

ANSWERS:
1.There natural carved mounds by mother nature. (That's hard to believe?)
2.There sediment casks from saltpeter mining. (Not a single nail or wire from forms?)
3.Not a single lead on any symbol. (I don't have a clue-can't find one that matches these)
4.The H L R are ruin writing and should be reported to proper folks. One "expert" said very possible. Second "expert" said definitely and pointed out others present. (but no interest since)

A spelunking group in Nashville came down and said it was an undocumented cave (unknown). But a very interesting cave they said.... Last I ever heard from them.

 

[Bucket Lister]

I sure have Bucket Lister ....

Had to ask.

ANSWERS:
1.There natural carved mounds by mother nature. (That's hard to believe?)

That one's easier for me to believe except for all the markings/treasure signs (if that's what's being alluded).

I'm not a caver/spelunker, but I know many caves have a lot of water action, carving, sculpting, depositing.... After thousands/millions of years of water coming in & out, swirling around depositing sediment/suspended material....

Perhaps if there were some corroborating evidence--other (nearby?) caves with the same mounds--they might take it more seriously(?)

Tall order, but if you could find the right grad student in search of a thesis topic, it could be a win-win. S/he gets "groundbreaking" (pun intended 😏) research, and you (hopefully) get some answers you can live with.

 

[Limitool]

Had to ask.

That one's easier for me to believe except for all the markings/treasure signs (if that's what's being alluded).

I'm not a caver/spelunker, but I know many caves have a lot of water action, carving, sculpting, depositing.... After thousands/millions of years of water coming in & out, swirling around depositing sediment/suspended material....

Perhaps if there were some corroborating evidence--other (nearby?) caves with the same mounds--they might take it more seriously(?)

Tall order, but if you could find the right grad student in search of a thesis topic, it could be a win-win. S/he gets "groundbreaking" (pun intended 😏) research, and you (hopefully) get some answers you can live with.

Maybe your right... but hard to swallow or believe. I'm not alluding any of the symbols are treasure signs. At best just a message for "someone" to see later. And the "Very Seculded Mound" (with flashlight) that is a long ways deep in cave is brutal to reach. At one point the cave is about 18" tall for about 30 yds. and filled 1/2 with water. But that mound is very squared up as you can see in the picture. How does that occur "naturally"...?

 

[Armchair detective]

Stone quarry? Should be a road nearby to get them out.

Also check with the former owners or descendents thereof of the property - might have some info.

 

[Limitool]

Stone quarry? Should be a road nearby to get them out.

Also check with the former owners or descendents thereof of the property - might have some info.

The mounds are made from hard packed mud not stone. Roads are an impossibility in this terrain. And that REALLY applies to where this cave is located. It's hard to reach on foot and very well "hidden" into the terrain.

I talked to a then 94 y.o. man who was driven up to my ridgetop in 1995 to see me. He asked me if I ever found an old house back their behind where mine is now? I said yes. He stated his Grandfather built it and his brother and himself lived and explored every inch of these ridges all the way to the Duck River. I asked him if he ever explored any of the caves between here and the river? He looked so puzzled and said their isn't any he was aware of. And if their was he would have found it/them. He asked me do I believe there is? I just smiled and said yes. I dropped the subject after that. So much for any info from the past 150 years.

 

[releventchair]

The mounds are made from hard packed mud not stone. Roads are an impossibility in this terrain. And that REALLY applies to where this cave is located. It's hard to reach on foot and very well "hidden" into the terrain.

I talked to a then 94 y.o. man who was driven up to my ridgetop in 1995 to see me. He asked me if I ever found an old house back their behind where mine is now? I said yes. He stated his Grandfather built it and his brother and himself lived and explored every inch of these ridges all the way to the Duck River. I asked him if he ever explored any of the caves between here and the river? He looked so puzzled and said their isn't any he was aware of. And if their was he would have found it/them. He asked me do I believe there is? I just smiled and said yes. I dropped the subject after that. So much for any info from the past 150 years.

Could the floor have risen over time from erosion deposits?

 

[Limitool]

Could the floor have risen over time from erosion deposits?

No... I dug down in front of the symbol mound and hit bedrock at about 4". And at various spots I stuck a thin X7 arrow shaft into the mud and quickly hit bedrock. You can see this on one of the videos on the original thread. Metal Detectiing TN. cave / Anybody done this?
1st video PG. 20 - Post 385
2nd video PG. 22 - Post 429

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Pinging off previous ideas:

Carved by nature, not so much. Deposited, much. Hydro action is the thing with caves, usually the cause of their formation. Stalagmites are sometimes formed by precipitation of solids from evaporating water solutions forming hard mineral deposits. From small/solution molecules. In this case it might be the stuff that is left behind because it was the heavier/larger fraction and the finer/lighter stuff moved off with the water and we now see the resulting void. Not so much chemistry but hydrology.

The overburden would indicate solutions to this riddle. Tell us about the overburden.

 

[Limitool]

Pinging off previous ideas:

Carved by nature, not so much. Deposited, much. Hydro action is the thing with caves, usually the cause of their formation. Stalagmites are sometimes formed by precipitation of solids from evaporating water solutions forming hard mineral deposits. From small/solution molecules. In this case it might be the stuff that is left behind because it was the heavier/larger fraction and the finer/lighter stuff moved off with the water and we now see the resulting void. Not so much chemistry but hydrology.

The overburden would indicate solutions to this riddle. Tell us about the overburden.

Sir I have no idea what you are referencing concerning "overburden". If I knew I'd try and give you and answer. The only stalagmites I ever saw were WAY BACK deep in the cave in just a small little area.

 

[searcher]

Concerning the stalactite picture.
It appears as if the base is hanging in mid air?

Is the base resting on the ground or is it connected only at the top?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Sir I have no idea what you are referencing concerning "overburden". If I knew I'd try and give you and answer. The only stalagmites I ever saw were WAY BACK deep in the cave in just a small little area.

View attachment 2164726

overburden

"overburden" published on by null.

www.oxfordreference.com

And just who u callin' sir?