Lost in the land of Typeology

[blindpig]

A while back , I wanted to give point type’n a try , so as many here on this forum suggest I gave projectilepoint.. Net a try [great site] . Anyway I had taken this pic of 4 different type points I had found in Iowa , and by chance I threw in this “knife-blade” that I had found in Mobridge S.D. , why I don’t know ?







I believe I started my search regionally [North Central] then by shape . With a copy of point pic in hand , I tested the waters first with an easy one , the little triangular one U. R. [upper right ] . There was a few type to choose from , but I found that some Madison’s had a notched -base , I typed this one a Madison notched -base , ha,... this is easy!!
The water seemed fine , so I plunged in with my next point, one of my favorite points [I don’t have many notched points ] in the pic it’s the B.R. . As I looked over the listed shape selection , I picked corner notched , seemed reasonable ? Anyway I started clicking in and out of them , ...all of them , some more then a “few” times !!? The best I could come up with is the snyders ,the shape matched , but I believe the size is wrong ? So I moved on , figured I’d try “side-notched” , after all it had the word “notched” in it , right?? , I found ... nutt’n ! I started feeling a bit lost in the land of Typeology , I had even made copies of the “ definition of terms, to have on hand , to help navigating around , but? With map in hand now , I found myself in expanding-stem [ I believe the correct place , for this type ] Ha, my little point seems to be a Carter , shape good , size O.K. , but even I could argue why it isn’t , it seems the trick is to be able to make the argument , why it is !!
I found this type’n a bit , “subjective” why does a snyder fall under corner-notched , and a Carter under notched expanding-stem ? They seem the same to me [no experience] , is it there relationship to other points or tools or cultural context ? I do realize I am trying to type one of each type of point , any one [if not all!!] of them maybe big/small or wide/ narrow ,etc. for the type , ..
Back to the type’n , on the left side , I tried looking in notched [expanding-stem] and stemmed , the only “hit” I had was the upper left [U.L.], it’s possible it is a “resharpened to exhaustion “ Hawkens ,but ?
This brings us to the last one, found on the Missouri river out in South Dakota . I always thought it to be a knife-blade , but for fun I had a look at the “Lanceolates” . I was surprised to find a few early types that had some similarities with it , I think it’s a McKean , the “newest” of the lanceolates , But if not for it’s size , a possible plainview or ?? If any of you believe it’s a older type please let me know , it is small , just under 3/4 in. Wide and is [end to brake] 2 and1/4 in long, projected length would have been about 2 and ½ in . Long.




I have added this pic of the broken end of the lanceolate , as I believe it to be “inpact-damage”, ..which is “way cool” , ..I don’t know really why that is ?




I also would like to know about the point ,lower right in pic , is it a small dart or a arrow-head ,and can we hang a name on it like a carter, webster or even a snyder? After giving type’n a try,.. I really do appreciate all your help.
Thanks again ; Blindpig

 

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[PALEOMAN]

thanks for the post! i really like the bottom r. are those fossils in it ? typeology is a very tricky subject. not only are there so many "types" but variants of types and local names for such. an old fella that taught me alot would sometimes show me an artifact , then explain what it was, ending with - prove me wrong. lol

 

[*Molly*]

Nice points. There are not many ppl I know that can type correctly. I mean I am still an ameteur. It takes a great deal of studying & knowledge to where the points were found. If you start with the state you are in, it helps to list all the points from there, Save pics of the different types & just keep studying them, note the differnces, no matter how slight. This all helps one become conversent with typology. It takes time. LOTS of time & studying.
I am lucky enough to have great teachers. It helps if you can find an expert on this matter from your state.

Molly.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Blindpig, I agree that typing a point can be a real pain in the rear. That's why I usually go with generic terms like "side notch", "corner notch", "stemmed", etc. There are some points that are easy to ID like Dovetails, Thebes, Clovis, Hardin, MacCorkle, etc and then there are variants of almost every type of point known to man. You have to take into account that there where all kinds of knappers back then that made points their own way and style and while they may have been similar to someone elses point, they were just a little different. If would be like giving 10 different woodcarvers a block of wood and telling them to carve out a long slender whistle. I'm sure each would carve a whistle that was long and slender and I'm sure they would be just a little different.

That's like your point in the bottom right corner. You say it looks like a Snyders and you are correct. It is more than likely a Hopewell type point, same as Snyders, and is just a small variant of the Snyders typology. I have all kinds of points that look just like that one that came from Woodland/Hopewell sites that I hunt. Though they aren't classic Snyders, they are in the Snyders family of points.

Another problem with typing points is that state by state or region by region has different names for the very same style of points. That point you have in the bottom right I would classify as a Hopewell Point here in Ohio, but in Arkansas it would probably be considered a Grand Point. Same culture, same type, different name. Another example is the Lost Lake types from Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, and that area. I have seen the same exact types found in Oklahoma and they are called Kay Blades. They look almost identical to Lost Lakes and are also early Archaic, but have different names in different regions. That's why when I try to buy ID books I look for Ohio type books or Kentucky type books since that's where I hunt. Projectilepoints.net is an excellent site for ID'ing points and I recommend it to a lot of people. So is What's The Point at www.oplin.org, but both can confuse the hell out of you sometimes when you are trying to get a point down to a certain type.

 

[Flintfinder of Mo.]

Good info Steve and Molly, paleo. I focus on the points found in my area of the Midwest. Try to get your hands on all the books, Archaeological society journals from your state. This will help you a bunch. plus the more you frequent artifact forums you will learn. I have seen some nock down drag out fights over 2 people who disagree on typing of a point. I myself make a big effort to know what I am picking up off my sites. Example the clay tablet that I found, I was told by several people that it was Mississippian, I knew better because every single point that has come off that site is woodland. If I had found even one single miss point I would have considered it. So that is just one of many of the things that can help you type your points, Another is flaking, heat treated points. I have seen points that look like a Hardin, but have been heat treated, So you cant call it a Hardin etc. etc. There is definitely a lot more to it than just the shape of the point. If you hang around long enough it will come to you. I have many buds that hunt and have no clue as to what they are finding, and they don't care. I was over at a buddy building him an outdoor fireplace, and looked down in his flower bed, He had 2 paleo square knives laying out in his flower bed. He had no ideal what he had, until I told him. You re trying so you are on the right tract. Good luck

 

[blindpig]

Paleoman , I put the point under a loop last-night , I don’t believe the white inclusions are fossils . The term “ variant” seem to make type’n ,.. Subjective, for a few anyway.
Molly , thanks for your input here , yes this type’n is a bit of a mind -tease, and true with some good old - fashion knowledge of the “variants” it would be much easier , but that’s the game , getting there , I have a cigar-box of points ,bought years ago I’ll try type’n them for fun , someday ?
Dorkfish, seems the term “variant” and local names is a common ..issue here . I will need to become efficient in the use of the “definition of terms” , I do like the simple “classification” , like my point [L.R.] as a corner-notched / expanding stem , woodlands/ Hopewell era , is good , tells me something about the point. O.K. Coach, I caught the ball ,watch me run,... Last night I googled the Hopewell Culture , sorry found out it’s a tradition , anyway Wikipedia [I’m sure I know everything there is to know about the Hopewell Tradition , now!! ] In there “rundown” of this “tradition” , was the great exchange system of mostly exotic items . The Wikipedia map of the “Hopewell interaction sphere” doesn’t include N.W Iowa , by about 100 mi to the east .. I know the sioux river [ where the point was found ] was a well used trade route, for pipe-stone . I believe [possibly] this corner-notched arrow-head was lost by a trader , during the Hopewell Tradition [200 B.C -500 A.D. ] while in route to /from trade for pipe-stone . , If a known source for the stone used for this point could be found , .. then we could hang a hat on that ! Wow , amazing how far you can go with so little knowledge,.... and even less fact !!
Flintfinder , Yeah, I ‘ve followed a few of those fights, some carry on like family, fun to read to a point . And on the other side of the coin ,there are some like your buds , I suppose too each there own ? I myself would just like to know the what and when ,... I can make up the rest .

Thanks for the feed...... Blindpig

 

[Ohio_Doug]

I'm not a huge fan of typeology, there are way too many variables. Just imagine how many hundreds of thousands of individuals that must have been knapping points during the same time period. Imagine the variances that had to have been evident during that period between the manufacturers. And who's to say that an Archaic Indian did'nt come across a Paleo era point and decide to copy it. I gaurantee that it happened many many times.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I'm not a huge fan of typeology, there are way too many variables. Just imagine how many hundreds of thousands of individuals that must have been knapping points during the same time period. Imagine the variances that had to have been evident during that period between the manufacturers. And who's to say that an Archaic Indian didn't come across a Paleo era point and decide to copy it. I guarantee that it happened many many times.

Not only that, but I have seen a few points over the years that were made from fluted points. You could still see the flutes on one or both sides, but they were now notched points.

 

[blindpig]

11KBP , Sooo , what your say’n ,.. It just get’s better ?? O... Sh...........JOY!!
Thanks Doug , I do like the idea of using a simple classification, but I will need to become efficient with standard terms used . I hope I could still get a good time period /use with just a classification ? So I don’t believe I’m going to be a “big” fan of type’n either [necessary to a??]..
But , I’m going to try a “few” more times anyway,......just because I can’t ...
DORK !! ,.........your, just not helping the situation............now that is . ..

Thanks again , Blindpig

 

[Dc1013]

These are all very good suggestions to typing points reading is definitely a plays a big part of it all.I myself am a little rusty at typing points because I haven't done my homework in awhile.So take what you can use and apply it to your area
Showme Mo.flint

 

[oldgoat]

Blindpig, let me throw my two cents in...most of the points that I have come from Texas, but many of them look like other types from Ohio or Kentucky...these are found by me...What I would like to see is a simpler system to type points...everything I have read on this thread has been good advice, tho...