Looking for more info on a RR (Rifleman) button and Artillery(Solved) button

[Don in SJ]

Posting for a friend who wants to part with these buttons but is trying to get more information about them first. I cannot find the RR over 1 button in my literature, (era 1811 according to Alberts) the finder evidently was told by one button expert it might be "unique" but the expert is not a War of 1812 or Civil War era expert.

The Artillery button is an AY30 (Artillery, 2nd Regiment) in Albert's book and had a RV100 in Albert's so it is a goodie, but there is a note below saying: "For account of the prediction and finding this button see The National Button Bulletin May 1962, p 128." (Solved, Colonial Dude found one in 2010)
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,341153.html

 

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[RELICDUDE07]

Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

The RR Button could be from the Second Queen's Royal Regiment 1707 era it looks older than the 1812 with the shank style.Just a guess as always from me -------Nice buttons!

 

[Don in SJ]

Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

IP remembered seeing the Artillery button posted before , so that one is solved, just the RR over 1 button is needed for ID/Info.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,341153.html

Don

 

[RELICDUDE07]

http://books.google.com/books?id=L3...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Check this book Don-page 18?

 

[nova treasure]

I couldn't find a Regiment of Rifles button with a number, but did find this that say the ordinal was added in 1814 after adding 3 more regiments. would this info pertain to this type button?

Bill

 

[Don in SJ]

Bill, nice background info which helps to say it is a War of 1812 button. Bill also I believe when the ordinal was added it was added to the new RR button which was the Bugle type.Interesting the finder emailed me last evening saying he forgot to mention that both buttons were found at the same site, and that the Township it was found in is where William Crumpton resided. He thinks perhaps the RR 1 button might have been a trial piece done by Crumpton, so time to go that way for some research on Crumpton, although I have gone thru the back section of Albert's book where he lists "Official List of Button Orders" and Crumpton did make lots of buttons for the military during the War of 1812, but neither his name, Armitage or any other button maker mentions a script RR button with a 1 beneath it or any other number, it did show authorization in 1814 when the Bugle was added to the buttons, so no help there other than to eliminate that year for manufacture.

Crumpton Button:
Resource: Record of American Uniform and Historical Buttons Bicentennial Edition
Author: Aiphaeus H. Albert)


Names of Contractors and Kinds of Buttons Furnished from 1800 – 1837

William Crumpton, Burlington, N. J. Infantry buttons, 1807, 1808, 1809, 1811, 1816; artillery, 1808, 1809, 1811, 1812: us., 1809; light dragoons, 1811; rifle, 1811.

I gave a quick look thru Tice's "Dating Buttons" book and curiously I could not find William Crumpton in there, it must be I would think, but my first look was negative, will look later today, things to do right now..........

Don

 

[Don in SJ]

I have had a closer look thru Tice's Dating Buttons book this evening and William Crumpton is listed and some backmark examples shown, and with what I see in his book, I would have to say it was not a production button made by Crumpton. The lack of a backmark and type of shank is somewhat puzzling, but still holding out the possibility it was a trial piece or unauthorized piece , since War of 1812 buttons and many other buttons had to be contracted out by the government, (authorized as to what will be on the button and how many groce authorized to make).
The finder thinks the land both the Artillery and RR 1 button were found at was possibly the land owned by William Crumpton, not that would seriously mean anything but perhaps.

I have sent photos to Tice and another button guru who specializes more in Rev War buttons, seems to be a lack of War of 1812 expert collectors out there, found that out while researching my unique Union Greens button from War of 1812.

So, open for more suggestions for the RR over 1 button.

Don

 

[Bramblefind]

Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinunitedst2351963unit/bulletinunitedst2351963unit_djvu.txt

The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
(fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
although a ground find, is more difficult to account
for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
same period. The most logical explanation seems
that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
the utter plainness of their plates when compared
with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
although there were no other rifle regiments from
1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
"national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
U.S." and the standard and national color of the
light artillery which were inscribed "The First
Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
1812-1813 period by process of elimination.

 

[Don in SJ]

Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinunitedst2351963unit/bulletinunitedst2351963unit_djvu.txt

The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
(fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
although a ground find, is more difficult to account
for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
same period. The most logical explanation seems
that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
the utter plainness of their plates when compared
with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
although there were no other rifle regiments from
1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
"national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
U.S." and the standard and national color of the
light artillery which were inscribed "The First
Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
1812-1813 period by process of elimination.

Yes, I copied that in this ole brain, but the word button with a 1 just not there, so although it enforces the probability of the date range but not a confirmation. I have written to two other experts, still no reply. I think the finder conversed with Don T from the beginning and he has no serious War of 1812 expertise, but I believe he is the one who might have suggested it was a unique trial pattern, just don't know. Again, a bit perplexed why this one piece has a shank like it does.

My USTE button was a flat one piece with no backmark, but had the typical shank for the period which was a tad later (1820). That button is still the only one known, and that one did have an authorization in 1820 to be made (by a UNK maker). I cannot find any authorization for the RR to be made with a Regiment Number beneath it like this one has.

 

[flintlock4]

Hi Don - this part of the excerpt I sent you earlier I thought might be a clue. Referencing the cap plates but indicating that they added the "1 reg" even before there were other regiments and dating it to 1812-1813. Before the buttons with the regiments numbers and bugles are dated to (1814).

http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinunitedst2351963unit/bulletinunitedst2351963unit_djvu.txt

The pattern of the second diamond-shaped ])laic
(fig. 23), also in brass and almost identical in size,
although a ground find, is more difficult to account
for. despite the fact that it most certainly falls in the
same period. The most logical explanation seems
that the riflemen, who considered themselves a cut
above the common infantry, became disgruntled with
the utter plainness of their plates when compared
with those just issued the infantry, and asked for and
received, possibly late in 1812, the plate with the
eagle and the designation "U.S. Rifle Men." The
fact that the plate bears the designation "1 reg'''" —
although there were no other rifle regiments from
1812 to 1814 — can be explained by reference to the
"national color" of the Rifle Regiment completed in
1808, which bore the inscription "1st Rifle Regt. —
U.S." and the standard and national color of the
light artillery which were inscribed "The First
Regiment of Light Artillery" when there was never
more than one light artillery unit in the Army.'"
In any case, accurate dating of the third and fourth
patterns definitely places the .second pattern in the
1812-1813 period by process of elimination.

Yes, I copied that in this ole brain, but the word button with a 1 just not there, so although it enforces the probability of the date range but not a confirmation. I have written to two other experts, still no reply. I think the finder conversed with Don T from the beginning and he has no serious War of 1812 expertise, but I believe he is the one who might have suggested it was a unique trial pattern, just don't know. Again, a bit perplexed why this one piece has a shank like it does.

My USTE button was a flat one piece with no backmark, but had the typical shank for the period which was a tad later (1820). That button is still the only one known, and that one did have an authorization in 1820 to be made (by a UNK maker). I cannot find any authorization for the RR to be made with a Regiment Number beneath it like this one has.

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Looking for more info on a RR(Rifleman) button and a War of 1812 button

The RR Button could be from the Second Queen's Royal Regiment 1707 era it looks older than the 1812 with the shank style.Just a guess as always from me -------Nice buttons!

Think u may be onto something about the drilled shank.. Would be the first Ive seen on a US 19th century military.. Does appear older