Looking for additional info on shot gun

[Older The Better]

This has been hanging on my parents fireplace forever, my dad told me today he didn’t know much about it other than he bought it off a woman who was selling her soon to be ex husbands guns and he was told it was civil war era





It has no markings on the lock plates but I pulled the pin and looked for proof marks under the barrel


This one is Belgian, 1811-1892 liege proof house

The other marks I don’t know how to read





I found a very similar one but the description didn’t really say who made it

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...ural-issues-circa-1840?variant=31066802847813

So I’m just looking for a bit more info on a maker, maybe confirm the date 1840-1860’s and I’m not even sure if it’s truly a Belgian gun or if maybe the barrel is made in Belgium and it’s been assembled elsewhere, there were some very similar English guns that popped up.

For now it’s bedtime so I’ll throw it out to you guys to maybe round out my research

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Older The Better]

Some additional photos




This one is the spot where the ramrod slides into the stock

 

[Retired Sarge]

Based on the markings a Belguim made shotgun. Ah I see you already figured the Belgium part out. Some stampings show it was made no earlier than 1853, but if I am correct on one marking it couldn't be made any earlier than 1898. Since you have the gun in hand I would check the guns markings to link I provided, to either confirm or shoot down my interpretation.

Based on the style of the ELG marking 1811 to present.

The one marking (Top marking, last picture, in the first set) is the Le Perron inspection mark was use earlier, but after 1853 was used as a marking for breeching proof inspection.

The 17.? I believe is the choke size, if so it was used 1898-1910.

The Crown U (Or any letter with a Crown) is an inspector marking used 1853-1877.

Star S is a inspectors mark, which replaced the Crown Letter marking. Odd fact is that this one has both Crown Letter and Star Letter markings.

Good site for figuring out your markings, it has links to various markings with an explanation. The post should get you pointed in all the right directions.

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=232252

 

[Retired Sarge]

Looking at this on my phone so some mark's I can't tell for sure what they are. One way is to list the markings so it's easier for people to see. That's just my opinion by the way.

 

[jewelerguy]

The 17.? I believe is the choke size, if so it was used 1898-1910.

I have absolutely nothing to add but would throw in my 2 cents that I feel it very unlikely this shotgun would fall within that particular date range simply for the fact that it's a muzzle loading percussion cap shotgun. At that time shotgun shells were the norm and percussion firearms were a thing of the past. By the late 1860's percussion cap firearms were obsolete

 

[smokeythecat]

I had one similar one once. ffuries, is that a Damascus steel gun? If so it should never be fired. If it is made of Damascus steel they then to blow up.

 

[releventchair]

I have absolutely nothing to add but would throw in my 2 cents that I feel it very unlikely this shotgun would fall within that particular date range simply for the fact that it's a muzzle loading percussion cap shotgun. At that time shotgun shells were the norm and percussion firearms were a thing of the past. By the late 1860's percussion cap firearms were obsolete

Accounts vary....Yet muzzle loaders were still in use around 1900.
Obviously later , and up to current time in small amounts.
Missouri up till around 1900 they were known of.
In the Appalachians they were still being built turn of the century/1900.
When making your own powder and rifles , time proven skills prevailed.

"Surplus" arms were sold quite a while after manufacture.
Some pulled out of storage and re-inspected in house , or by an importer.
Some modified ect. too.

The civil war , not unlike others saw firearms from previous eras pressed into service.
A friend had a smoothbore his ancestor carried in the war.
I no longer recall the maker , but it sure was not the current (wartime) modern arm.

So , a gun in someones possession during the war era , could have been from a previous era easy enough.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I had one similar one once. ffuries, is that a Damascus steel gun? If so it should never be fired. If it is made of Damascus steel they then to blow up.

Chances are this one has a Damascus barrel, also based on the markings it seems it was made prior to smokeless powder. While I love to shoot the weapons I collect, I can not in good faith recommend firing this one. I would have it inspected by a reputable and knowledgeable gunsmith and IF deemed safe to shoot, and IF I chose to shoot it, it should be done with light loads only.

All that said, and as much as I like to shoot my weapons, this one I would clean, oil, and hang it on the wall as an example of a time gone by. I'm rather attached to my ugly mug and as ugly as it is, I wish to preserve and keep it for as long as I can.

 

[Older The Better]

Thanks for the replies so far. Ill get back to looking into it sometime this weekend. It’s not going to be fired it’s definitely staying safely above the fireplace. It did get a new coat of oil before it went back up.

I will say I have my own newer black powder shotgun and it’s a ton of fun to shoot. Now I’m Looking at getting a flintlock kit to build since I liked that one so much.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Thanks for the replies so far. Ill get back to looking into it sometime this weekend. It’s not going to be fired it’s definitely staying safely above the fireplace. It did get a new coat of oil before it went back up.

I will say I have my own newer black powder shotgun and it’s a ton of fun to shoot. Now I’m Looking at getting a flintlock kit to build since I liked that one so much.

Just as an additional note Belgian shotguns like this were heavily imported to North America during the 1890's-1920. If in fact the one marking is a Choke Size stamping it would fit in with the before mentioned dates as the choke stamping was used around 1898-1910.

A good trick to getting markings to stand out, that we gun collectors use, it to take a white crayon or white out. Wipe it over the markings, wipe the excess off, allowing the remaining to fill in the markings. If you look at the last picture (It's a little blurry) you can see where I used a white crayon to bring out markings on a 1917 Tula (PTG) M91 Mosin Nagant. This is nondestructive, and non-permanent, it can be cleaned off easily with bore cleaner, or brake cleaner etc. Found a better example of highlighting markings, this one is on my Austrian 95/30 that was made 1918.

Here's a picture showing a good example of the Choke Size stamping I mentioned. Yours is on the bottom, the better example on the top.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Note, inspect the barrels if there are wavy lines present in the steel, that would indicate a Damascus or Laminated steel barrel. These were blackpodwer guns and internally the barrels typically suffered from corrosion.

If not a Damascus or Laminated steel barrel and it passed an inspection, I would be tempted to shoot it with light loads.

With a detailed list of the markings with good pictures I could give you a better rundown on what they are and what they mean.

 

[EccentricInTexas]

MAKE SURE IT IS NOT LOADED. I have a friend that bought a mid 1800's muzzle loading double musket/shotgun that was still loaded!!! https://www.instagram.com/p/B5_EwRrBhJ4/

 

[Retired Sarge]

MAKE SURE IT IS NOT LOADED. I have a friend that bought a mid 1800's muzzle loading double musket/shotgun that was still loaded!!! https://www.instagram.com/p/B5_EwRrBhJ4/

Excellent point, always treat a gun as loaded, even when it's unloaded. Good way to determine if it's loaded.

https://www.hunter-ed.com/muzzleloa...-Sure-the-Muzzleloader-Is-Empty/222099_88853/

 

[NOLA_Ken]

17.6 is the bore in mm. it translates to 20ga. If I had to guess I would date this gun from around the 1850's to no later than around 1870. Breech loading shotguns were introduced in the 1860's and it didn't take long for manufacturers to all switch to the more modern design.

As to it being a shooter...... even the old damascus guns can be loaded and fired, but you have to get the bores inspected to make sure there's no serious pitting and be sure the barrels are tight in the stock an there are no cracks in the wood... and you absolutely have to use real black powder, Fg or FFg only. FFFg powder will generate too high of a pressure and can burst the barrels, and you absolutely can't use modern pyrodex. But it looks nice on the wall and I think I'd just let it stay there

 

[Older The Better]

Thanks for the interest, I didn’t get a chance to get back over to take better pictures yet.

Nola you kind of hit on something I was wondering about. I had seen the choke stamp was later but it seemed before they put choke next to the number it indicated the gauge. As far as I can tell there is no lettering saying choke just the number. I will look to see if there is any faint letting when I look at it again

 

[Retired Sarge]

17.6 is the bore in mm. it translates to 20ga. If I had to guess I would date this gun from around the 1850's to no later than around 1870. Breech loading shotguns were introduced in the 1860's and it didn't take long for manufacturers to all switch to the more modern design.

As to it being a shooter...... even the old damascus guns can be loaded and fired, but you have to get the bores inspected to make sure there's no serious pitting and be sure the barrels are tight in the stock an there are no cracks in the wood... and you absolutely have to use real black powder, Fg or FFg only. FFFg powder will generate too high of a pressure and can burst the barrels, and you absolutely can't use modern pyrodex. But it looks nice on the wall and I think I'd just let it stay there

Thanks for the interest, I didn’t get a chance to get back over to take better pictures yet.

Nola you kind of hit on something I was wondering about. I had seen the choke stamp was later but it seemed before they put choke next to the number it indicated the gauge. As far as I can tell there is no lettering saying choke just the number. I will look to see if there is any faint letting when I look at it again

Correct, don't know why I got stuck on choke versus bore with the numbers.

But why do I keep thinking that a 17mm bore size would be a 16 guage versus a 20 gauge?