✅ SOLVED Latest "Shootin Iron" find, but who made it?

[Ironman!]

I eyeballed this little .32 cal. pistol on a 4 hr. relic hunt recently. I and a few friends cannot find an exact match. Plenty of other pistols are close but nothing exactly matches yet. Are there any gun experts that can come up with a picture or proof of exactly who made this. It is fully loaded with Union Metallic Cartridges (a raised U). I know they're referenced as a "Pocket Pistol, "Boot Pistol", or "Suicide Special" and have used these search parameters. The only identifying marks on it that I can make out so far is a serial number on the grip (2573). I cannot see any markings on the barrel or top strap over the cylinder.

The closest matches have been S&W, Norwich Arms, Johnson & Bye, etc. We haven't been able to find an exact match for the cylinder. One friend in my circle who knows guns, says that he believes the cylinder is older and may have been added later?

Thank you for looking,
IM

P.S. I did also find the screw for the grip. If you look at the picture of the pistol as I eyeballed it, it is at 6 o'clock of the hammer!

 

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[c.d.]

Its a Hopkins and Allen Dictator. Patent was around 1879.

 

[Simon1]

Close, but the hammer is shaped differently as well as the back side upper portion of the butt. One is a nice curve while the other is more angular.

 

[c.d.]

How bout this one. Same gun just a few years newer.
The hammer on this model was often modified due to hanging up in the pocket when being drawn.

 

[TomPA]

And the cylinder pins are of different lengths. But the newer model looks good.

 

[flyadive]

It's a Derringer . I have a similar black powder revolver from 1980's that is 31 caliber . Made by CVA as a kit, I had to put together.

 

[bratt22]

My opinion that's who the manufacturer is above. As for the cylinder pin it's probably pulled out some and rusted at that point. Correct on modification of the hammer.

 

[Ironman!]

Thanks guys, the cylinder is still off as well as the hammer, but as you say these could just be modifications. This was found in a predominantly 1880's site, but did see usage from the 1870's till present day.

IM

 

[tamrock]

I remember buying one like it at a gun show around 1974-75? for 12 bucks ... What a cool find. The ground you found it looks allot like the high plains windswept sage country of Wyoming? How cool you took a photo of it as it was found

 

[AU Seeker]

I agree with C.D. that the manufacturer is Hopkins and Allen, but I think it's an XL model, the XL models came with either a hexagon or round barrel, the trigger on your's is not the "spur" hammer/trigger as in the other photos posted up to now, not sure what they call the hammer/trigger type your's has but it's not modified but came from the factory with that type of hammer/trigger, here's a photo of a XL .30 long with the same hammer/trigger your's has...

Priced in Auctions : Hopkins & Allen XL 30 Single Action Pocket Revolver* - HLEBOOKS.com & Collectorebooks.com

The cylinder pin is different but they also had different styles of the pin as well as scalloped or non-scalloped cylinders.

From the serial number you posted it appears to have been manufactured in 1876...

XL

Approximate Serial Number Range of the XL Series except the XL No.8, Navy and Police model and all spur triggers
Year	number
1875	1 - 2000
1876	2001 - 4000
1877	4001 - 6000
1878	6001 - 8000
1879	8001 - 10000
1880	10001 - 12000
1881	1801 - 2100
1882	12001 - 14000
1883	14001 - 16000
1884	16001 - 20000
1885	20001 - 22000

 

[AU Seeker]

Also if you clean the top of the gun above the cylinder you may be able to see what model it truly is.

 

[Ironman!]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been putting in my 16 hr. days at work (12 at work, 2 bus ride each way). Thanks for the info. AU Seeker, I will follow up with this avenue of search. I have 3 other pictures of guns that look similar too that friends have sent me. I'll keep you posted. I have been cleaning the barrel and top strap with no lettering appearing yet.

 

[releventchair]

The Ranger in the link below looks close..(scroll down to the picture of several pieces)the frame shape near the cylinder pin and the small pin that goes through the frame below and slightly behind that area matches. Hammer too looks closer. Non fluted cylinder , non break action ..
The sight is a simple post in the pic , but could have been changed or ordered differently perhaps .
H&A made a ton of spur trigger pistols...many marked with lot numbers rather than serial numbers.

Ranger

 

[Ironman!]

Thanks releventchair for the info. It is much appreciated!

 

[NOLA_Ken]

none of the guns posted so far are a match, they all have differences in the cylinder (length and op's is not fluted), and the cylinder pin, and the shape of the bottom of the frame. The big problem with IDing these little spur trigger pocked pistols is that there were literally HUNDREDS of different makers and models. Also a lot of gun makers manufactured guns specifically for retailers, a lot of collectors refer to these as "Hardware store guns". My first thought seeing it was that it was a Defender... Is there a trigger type release for the cylinder pin on the front of the frame?

 

[Ironman!]

Latest "Shootin Iron" find, but who made it?

Thanks for the info. NOLA_Ken. Yes, that is what I am finding out as far as these small guns are concerned. That is, they were mass produced by many companies and very cheap & easy to get a hold of. I do have some other avenues I am pursuing and will keep everyone up to date if and when I do get an exact match, which might not happen if this has been modified. I have been told by a guy who knows guns tell me that he believes the cylinder is not the original and looks to be older?

Thanks again,
IM

P.S. - No, there is no trigger release for the cylinder pin.

 

[releventchair]

none of the guns posted so far are a match, they all have differences in the cylinder (length and op's is not fluted), and the cylinder pin, and the shape of the bottom of the frame. The big problem with IDing these little spur trigger pocked pistols is that there were literally HUNDREDS of different makers and models. Also a lot of gun makers manufactured guns specifically for retailers, a lot of collectors refer to these as "Hardware store guns". My first thought seeing it was that it was a Defender... Is there a trigger type release for the cylinder pin on the front of the frame?

The third down on the left is not close?

 

[NOLA_Ken]

This one is pretty close... the shape of the frame is right and the cylinder matches. The cylinder pin is different, but it's the closest I've found so far...

Collectors Firearms Archives - Home

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I meant to add, I doubt that your cylinder is a replacement, every one of these different pistols was made slightly differently.... Finding a cylinder from an older gun that would have the stop notches and advance spurs line up right seems fairly unlikely. The pin could be a replacement though

EDIT.... It may just be my eyes playing tricks but it almost looks like there is some lettering on the left side of the barrel when I enlarged the pic

 

[releventchair]

This one is pretty close... the shape of the frame is right and the cylinder matches. The cylinder pin is different, but it's the closest I've found so far...

Collectors Firearms Archives - Home

The frame below and just in front of the rear of the cylinder has an inward step cut out on the model you show..
A bullet style ejector rod was popular...wonder if any were cut down for easier pocket draw??