Lates Beach Find! Wooden Ships Knee!

[rgecy]

Well, I got offshore today to do some Side Scanning with my Humminbird 997 but the wind picked up and made things a little choppy. So we headed in and decided to look around the beach.

I have been looking for this wreck for several years. Just beach combing looking for clues and getting out on the water when the seas would cooperate. It has been teasing me with bits and pieces now and then. I found a large hull timber several years ago, very near where I found this piece. It had a single bronze spike, several iron spikes, and numerous treenails.

Any way, here are some picts of the ships knee. Any thoughts on what part of a ship this may have come from. It has an unusual curve back on one end and a chamfered out section where something fit in it. It measures 39" x 36" and is oak and made from one piece of wood. It was cut from a tree to this shape, not bent!

 

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[FISHEYE]

It looks like its the leading edge to a rudder.I have something close,same kind of wood with tree nails in it and a small piece of copper sheathing still attached with copper nails.also has bronze spikes in it and the wood is square.i think its the trailing edge of a rudder.i found it at the cape.8 miles south of the the last parking lot.new smyrna is north of there.there were other timbers in the washed out dunes the day i got this piece.they were 10 foot long.looked to be a ships ribs.im sure they are still there but buried back by the sand.i got a few bronze spikes out of them.this piece i got about killed me trudging thru the sand for 8 miles.i now know how shipwreck survivors felt walking down the beach with a pocket full of gold or other belongings.many times on my way back i thought about stashing it in the dunes and comming back for it later.but the park rangers said i could take as much driftwood off the beach as i wanted.so i took advantage of it at the time.

Did you find your wood in florida or further north?

 

[rgecy]

Further North!

What I also find interesting is what looks like some kind of tar or sealant on the one side. Any thoughts?

 

[FISHEYE]

The tar would have been put on to protect the wood from the wood eating worms.i think back then they even mixed the tar with horse hair.


Pine tar produced in traditional kilns was once known and marketed all over the world as " Stockholm tar". It has been used for hundreds of years to preserve wooden vessels and it is still needed for maintenance of old wooden ships and boats.

Tar is a complex combination distillate containing thousands of substances, produced by the high temperature carbonization of pine wood in anoxic conditions (dry distillation). It consists primarily of aromatic hydrocarbons, tar acids and tar bases. Components of tar vary according to the pyrolytic process (e.g. method, duration, temperature) and origin of the wood (e.g. age of pine trees, type of soil and moisture conditions during tree growth). The choice of wood, design of kiln, burning and collection of the tar can vary from burning to burning. Only stumps and roots of pine are used in the traditional production of pine tar.

Pine tar is needed to keep the surfaces, the materials and the colours of wooden vessels in good condition and to maintain their original appearance. The efficacy of pine tar for wood treatment is mainly based on physically blocking the porous structure of the wood material and making the material water proof. Pine tar has to be applied regularly to give the surface sufficient protection depending on the tar quality, building and construction details, the orientation and the local conditions. Tar is applied normally by a big brush. It is recommended to apply thick layers of tar to protect the wooden vessels/objects (for instance rigging) from water penetration and degradation by weathering.

The use of other products to preserve wooden historic vessels is highly unsafe and can lead to the destruction of the vessels through cracking of the wood etc. Without a pine tar treatment such a boat would leak and sink.

 

[rgecy]

I understand the uses of tar FISHEYE. What intreagued me was the fact that it was between the surface of this knee and I guess the hull! I am not even sure it is tar, or maybe some similar substance, but was very interesting it would be on the one side.

I don't think this piece was on the outside of the hull. Definitely seems like an inner hull structure. Maybe not a deck knee brace, but certainly a brace of some sort.

Anyone have and detailed photos of ship construction during the 1700's?

 

[billinstuart]

I think it's a knee, used to support the transom where it meets the bottom or a similar angular location. Seem to remember boats from the Bahamas (man o' war?) used these oak knees. Notice how the grain follows the bend. These natural bent wood features were sought out because of their strength.

 

[Jimi D Pirate]

Schematic of A Treasure Galleon


http://www.internationalmarinerecovery.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=2

 

[pcolaboy]

Very SWEET Robert!!!! You're on it bro...go and get it!

Pcola

 

[Galleon Hunter]

Robert:
Looks like a hanging knee to me. See Richard Steffy's book "Ship Construction and Interpretation. Pretty expensive to buy but it is a fantastic reference book, and well worth it.

Galleon Hunter

 

[rgecy]

I think it's a knee, used to support the transom where it meets the bottom or a similar angular location. Seem to remember boats from the Bahamas (man o' war?) used these oak knees. Notice how the grain follows the bend. These natural bent wood features were sought out because of their strength.

Bill,

Funny you mentioned Man-O-War! Thats what I am looking for!

 

[pcolaboy]

I think it's a knee, used to support the transom where it meets the bottom or a similar angular location. Seem to remember boats from the Bahamas (man o' war?) used these oak knees. Notice how the grain follows the bend. These natural bent wood features were sought out because of their strength.

I remember reading up some history of our Naval Live Oaks Preserve near Pensacola. One of the specific uses of the "curvy" trunks of a Live Oak was for the production of "stiff knees" in the framing of sailing ships. I'm not exactly sure if we're talking about the same particular component but the idea is certainly the same. Old Ironsides (USS Constitution) was built using Live Oaks from this particular preserve.

Pcola

 

[billinstuart]

Live oaks are evergreens, and different from other oaks. It's really strong and hard. though. I'd heard that (old ironsides) about our southern live oaks. They also won't burn. Florida has "scrub oaks", smaller live oaks that are kinda twisted and gnarly.

Knees are used wherever sharp bends are needed. Man o' war, between Hopetown and Marsh Harbor, built small boats using these natural structural bends.

 

[MichaelB]

Pcola, after Hurricane Fredric Mobile donated a Live Oak that was estimated to be over 200 yrs old and was damaged by the storm to a repair of Old Ironsides that was going on at that time. Off the subject some, just a fyi.

MichaelB

 

[ivan salis]

ah pitch as old swabbies called it --a nasty stinky mess used to seal a wooden ships hull and protect er from those nasty lil wood boring worms ( it was made of many things -- horse hair, tar and sulfur were major ingredents it was some what similar to the roofing tar we use today -- on unprotected hulls the wood boring worms would drill right thru the hulls in short order causing so much leakage that over time it would sink a vessel --- carrenning a ship to do hull work was vital -- and any ship caught doing it was easy prey to any ship that wanted to take her. --- even today hundreds of years later you can still find bits of wood from wreck sites with this crusty tar like stuff attached to it .

 

[mistergee]

found one exactly like that in toms river n.j. a long time ago. found it along a small stretch of beach on the river after a storm. it was obvious it was from a boat. just didnt know better then. i used it to border a forsynthia in my father in laws yard. part of it is still there but the termites have had thier way with it . its barely recognizable. it also was much smaller than yours. maybe 3 feet from end to end and maybe 4-5" thick.

 

[mistergee]

would that be these

 

[Jimi D Pirate]

A knee is generally heavy members of wood or iron, used to strengthen angular junctions.

The interior curvature between the two arms of a wooden knee usually follows the line of a naturally grown crook.

These were among the first members to be replaced with iron in composite ship construction.

Knees can be defined by location and alignment as follows:

* The breasthook (also stemlock or forehook) is set horizontally inside and near the head of the stem.

* a dagger knee is set obliquely.

* a hanging knee is one set upright with the horizontal arm to the top.

* a lodge, or lodging knee is set horizontally, usually in the plane of deck beams.

* a standing knee is set upright with the horizontal arm on the bottom.

 

[FISHEYE]

Robert,

Now all you have to do is put a date on the wood,plus find out what kind of wood it is.Plus what kind of a ship it came from.Find a dead eye and i will date it for you.Keep in mind that around the 1750 era that in the UK they cut down all thier trees so in order to build ships they had to come to america to get wood to bring back to build thier ships.As is the case with the El Salvadore.It was a Snow built in the UK useing wood imported from america.

 

[ivan salis]

yes the wood shortage in england for maritime use made england's american colonies very useful to her --- americas revolt and breakaway and the USA'S no farther importion of slaves from africa law (1803* the same year england outlawed slavery and "offically" forbid vessels flying her flag from the slave bussiness ) and the later trade embargo in 1809 that closed US PORTS to english shipping caused the british (like it or not) to trade heavily with spanish florida for maritime lumber products (some say the embargo was a leading factor to the war of 1812)--- up in my area around amelia island , florida area (a illegal slave smuggling haven--- slaves were legally brought into slave dealing spanish florida and then ilegaly smuggled and sold in georgia for a hefty profiet) there are 24 english vessels recorded as sinking during the lumber trade era (1810 - 1816) -- or roughly a rate of 1 every 3 months for 6 years -- and thats just the recorded ones. -- in one small area--the great numbers lost refect the massive volume of trade that was going on between spanish florida and england at the time during the so called "lumber trade era" between 1803 and 1820 time frame ---- Ivan