Known shipwrecks with secret cargo: have any of the secret cargoes been found"

[ropesfish]

Hi folks!
I have been seeing several wrecks over the last few years being touted as having millions or billions in gold or silver bullion or buckets of gemstones aboard that were not on the manifest, but are assuredly there because insert some reason here.
Have any of these phantom cargoes been salvaged or is it always a case of "THIS ONE going to be THE one"?
Not to be picking on any of my friends who are chasing these projects...just an honest question.

 

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[Salvor6]

Well if the cargo has been found, it wouldn't be a secret anymore.

 

[ropesfish]

Well if the cargo has been found, it wouldn't be a secret anymore.

Well, gee, Pete...that was helpful...

 

[enrada]

The first question I ask myself when I see a secret cargo or millions or billions "Is it a stock exchange funded company or a privately funded company". When I read about the Shinil claim I checked and found out that it was a stock market project and that told me all I needed to know. My project is privately funded.

 

[Boatlode]

Wasn't there a U-boat that went down somewhere near the end of WWII with a secret cargo of gold bullion bound for South America?

 

[ropesfish]

Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
Also from WIkipedia:
She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[SUP][2][/SUP]
She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/...-of-axis-gold-found-on-floor-of-atlantic.html

and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-shipped-by-u-boat-to-argentina-5350561.html


Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4077188/nazi-gold-treasure-shipwreck-iceland/

 

[ropesfish]

Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
Also from WIkipedia:
She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[SUP][2][/SUP]
She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/...-of-axis-gold-found-on-floor-of-atlantic.html

and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-shipped-by-u-boat-to-argentina-5350561.html


Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4077188/nazi-gold-treasure-shipwreck-iceland/

 

[Boatlode]

Boatlode - I only know of the Japanese sub for sure:
there was I-52, the Japanese sub carrying 2.2 tons of gold that Paul Tidwell found in 1995 @17,000 fsw in the Bay of Biscay, between France and Spain.
Her cargo from Japan included 9.8 tons of molybdenum, 11 tons of tungsten, 2.2 tons of gold in 146 bars packed in 49 metal boxes, 3 tons of opium and 54 kg of caffeine as well as 120 tons of tin in ingots, 59.8 tons of caoutchouc (raw rubber) in bales and 3.3 tons of quinine,
Also from WIkipedia:
She is also known as Japan's "Golden Submarine", because she was carrying a cargo of gold to Germany as payment for matériel and technology. There has been speculation that a peace proposal to the Allies was contained on board the I-52 as well, but this is unlikely on two counts: there is no evidence that the Japanese government was interested in peace proposals or negotiated settlements at that stage in the war; and the Japanese kept an open dialogue with their diplomatic attachés via radio and diplomatic voucher through Russia, and had no need for long and uncertain transfer via a submarine bound for a Nazi-controlled area of western Europe.
It is believed that 800 kg (1,760-lbs) of uranium oxide awaited I-52 for her return voyage at Lorient according to Ultra decrypts. It has been speculated that this was for the Japanese to develop a radiological weapon (a so-called "dirty bomb") for use against the United States. (The amount of unenriched uranium oxide would not have been enough to create an atomic bomb, though if used in a nuclear reactor it could have created poisonous fission products).[SUP][2][/SUP]
She was also to be fitted with a snorkel device at Lorient. In addition, 35 to 40 tons of secret documents, drawings, and strategic cargo awaited I-52's return trip to Japan: T-5 acoustic torpedoes, a Jumo 213-A motorused on the long-nosed Focke-Wulf Fw 190D fighter, radar equipment, vacuum tubes, ball bearings, bombsights, chemicals, alloy steel, and optical glass.
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/18/...-of-axis-gold-found-on-floor-of-atlantic.html

and there was this documentary that made no specific claims that I recall.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...d-shipped-by-u-boat-to-argentina-5350561.html


Does this ship count? https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4077188/nazi-gold-treasure-shipwreck-iceland/

Wow 17000 feet. Thats a long hookah hose LOL.
I seem to remember something about a u-boat that departed Germany very late in the war bound for Argentina carrying several of Hitler's top officers and a lot of gold bullion.

Or it could be a novel I read at some point and in the dusty recesses of my brain it has migrated from fiction to non-fiction LOL.

As always, you are a treasure trove of information Capn. Bill.

Mike

 

[A2coins]

If someone said there was treasure wouldnt the Gov or someone look into them Love the posts about the Subs and lost gold

 

[Darren in NC]

All of the gold/silver shipments during the World Wars were secret. Many have been recovered. The City of Cairo silver was recently salvaged by Kingsford. The Empire Manor gold was recovered by Risdon Beazley. Google names like Lusitania, Egypt, Niagra, John Barry, etc.

And there are others...

 

[xaos]

There are the secret and there is the undocumented. A ships manifest showed what was being transported by the ship, but nothing about personal items on board (unless there was insurance)

Many of the Spanish Treasure ships had significant wealth not shown on the manifest. Gold was fashioned into jewelry and other items to avoid tax, mostly undocumented.

If someone said there was treasure wouldnt the Gov or someone look into them Love the posts about the Subs and lost gold

They are, the UK Govt Commodity Wreck program was an example.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hi folks!
I have been seeing several wrecks over the last few years being touted as having millions or billions in gold or silver bullion or buckets of gemstones aboard that were not on the manifest, but are assuredly there because insert some reason here.
Have any of these phantom cargoes been salvaged or is it always a case of "THIS ONE going to be THE one"?
Not to be picking on any of my friends who are chasing these projects...just an honest question.

Hola Amigo

I think many WW2 stories treasure stories regards Submarines evolved from the true Story USS Trout that shipped gold from the Philippines in 1942. But that was not common practice just a last ditch desperate measure. The effectiveness of submarine can be affected by a heavy cargo its not designed. The Japanese sub mentioned before was different case in question because it was designed to take cargo.

As any submariner will tell you most submarines are not designed to carry tons and tons of gold. They was impossible cramped to begin with. Most used the combined body weight of the crew to trim the submarine.

The two u boats that fled to Argentina at the end of the war created all sort of conspiracy theory's of large amount of treasure in them. After internment Some of the German crews settled in Argentina, Chile.

My wife' late father was one of the crew members of the U-530 . I asked him that question about wealth carried on the subs when they defected. He scoffed and laughed if they had money and gold he never saw a cent of it.

Mal

 

[Salvor6]

The IXD German submarines could carry over 250 tons of cargo. Germany built 30 of them in 1943 and 1944. The Japanese sub I-52 sank 850 miles west of the Canary Islands in March 1944 carrying 2.2 tons of gold bars. She also had over 120 tons of cargo destined for France.

 

[South Sea mariner]

The IXD German submarines could carry over 250 tons of cargo. Germany built 30 of them in 1943 and 1944. The Japanese sub I-52 sank 850 miles west of the Canary Islands in March 1944 carrying 2.2 tons of gold bars. She also had over 120 tons of cargo destined for France.

Hola Salvor6

Your correct but only partially. In question not all the IXD submarines was converted to cargo boats.

In regards to the two Submarines fleeing to Argentina the U-530 was a Type IXC/40 U-boat. U-977 was a World War II Type VIIC U-boat.

Was involved both crews was fleeing seeking asylum in Argentina. While there was panic in the crew of U-530 that they would be accused of sinking the Brazilian cruiser after the war had ended. In effect a war crime. The Argentine navy inspected the u-530 and found no torpedos missing. later investigations by the Americans and British turned up nothing. Of course this did not stop wild speculations about the two subs.

Hans my father in law was just an ordinary seaman. Yet suspected the reason why the log was destroyed that his commander witnessed the sinking of the Brazilian ship through the periscope. And was afraid of being implicated in a war crime. But because of log being destroyed it sparked many conspiracy theories.

Old Hans he had this terrible gruff German accent. You know the type of voice that sounds angry? Yet he was the most happy go lucky guy you could met despite a lot of tragedy in his life. He had been married twice he had his first wife died in bombing of Dresden leaving him with a young son after the war and internment he returned to Germany and collect his son. nearly 5 year old he had never seen who had been looked after by his late wife's grand mother. Germany was shattered after WW2 so for him he remarried in Germany and with his new family returned South America to Chile. Even so his second wife was not so faithful and ran off with Chilean fellow leaving him to bring up 5 kids. He had four Sons and one girl. That girl years later became my wife. his youngest son only 16 was killed in a car crash. His oldest son was murdered by the Pinochet regime in 1970's. Even with all the family tragedy he always had a happy disposition.

He was almost totally deaf. He has lost most of his hearing as he was on a submarine in straits of Gibraltar where he was death charged. So his speaking was loud and with gruff accent. He was chain smoker all his life he died at ripe of age of 86. He always joked his doctor told him to give up smoking for 30 years. His doctor was fitness fanatic died of heart attract at 53 and Hans lived smoking to 86, go figure!

Later in his live as he got old he lived in my granny flat. I think he had soft spot for me as I was seaman myself. Hell on his rocking chair cigarette in hand told me many yarns. My wife doted on her dad. At Christmas he dress up as father Christmas. Toward the end of his life he even forgot to speak German. After 50 years being away he lost all contact on any surviving family in Germany.

He mentioned to on I think he said on the subs sixth voyage on the U-530 that met up and supplied a radar unit to an Japanese submarine mid Atlantic then returned to Germany. But as far as I am aware Hans was never privy to what was on the Japanese submarine? They was just happy to get back to port to rum and girls ALIVE?. It was the second voyage he sailed on U-530 which was for him his last voyage and good riddance he told me Das boot was nicknamed "Iron Coffins" to crews that operated them. The crew was made of various experienced and inexperienced crew members who had served on various boats. To the end of the war most was just scared kids.

As for stories of huge gold transfers to South America I suspect best to look at the account methods of the Vatican bank that through diplomatic banks transfers fleeing Nazis fund to South America. The Vatican bank does not operate in the capacity of banks as we know it. It operates as a clearing house.

Mal

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hola amigos

Here is an insight into German submarines of WW2



Submarines are fascinating but for me I stick to cargo ships.

There is an 1981 movie "das boot" sadly in German showing the terror of being a submariner in WW2.



While movie is in German the terror is universal.

Mal

 

[Salvor6]

Yes South Sea Mariner the U-530 is the German sub that met with the I-52 to transfer a radar detector and enigma machine. WOW! If he were only alive today, the stories he could tell! I-52 was detected by underwater sound detectors. After the I-52 was destroyed by sound seeking torpedos the sound detectors still picked up propeller sounds from the U-530, 20 miles away! They are lucky they got away alive.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Yes South Sea Mariner the U-530 is the German sub that met with the I-52 to transfer a radar detector and enigma machine. WOW! If he were only alive today, the stories he could tell! I-52 was detected by underwater sound detectors. After the I-52 was destroyed by sound seeking torpedos the sound detectors still picked up propeller sounds from the U-530, 20 miles away! They are lucky they got away alive.

Hola Salvor6

Wow I did not know that......

I think you would of loved his yarns. A unique perceptive of war from the other side. While no doubt the rightness side won the war. But it is interesting to hear perspectives from the other side. Of life in nazi Germany for ordinary folk pressed into war weather they liked it or not. I always remembered a meeting between Han's and an ex British merchant navy sailor that was on an oil tanker torpedoed in the North Atlantic? You would think it was a very awkward moment. The two old warriors eye one another off At first. Yet after 50 years the memories still ran strong.

The talked and shared a beer together. Ironic that Hans was actually was on the sub that sank the ship the old merchant sailor was on. He had lost many friends. They talked rather guardedly at first, but the more they talk the more they realize they was not as different as imagined or was told to believe. Old Hans turned to me and said back in WW2 it was nothing personal if the roles was reversed he would do the same to me. It was war you was ordered to kill and if you didn't you be killed yourself. And besides he said regardless of what ever country, race and religion you are. If your at the bottom in society you are the cannon fodder.. Rich men start wars poor men fight them. Rich men benefit from them poor men pay for them.

50 years on they were reminded by each others presence that they survived the carnage of WW2. And it was time long overdue for those old hatreds to be vanquished. The two shared stories and kept in contact with one another until their deaths.

Mal

 

[Salvor6]

Hola Mariner I know exactly what you mean. My Mother was German and she and all her brothers and sisters served in WWII. My Mother was in the Womans Air Corps and served as a nurse at a hospital in Paris. She met Herman Goering, Commander of the Luftwaffe (air force) when he came in for dental work. The Germans would broadcast on radio "don't bomb this hospital because all your wounded Royal Air Force pilots are on the top floor." They never got bombed.

 

[South Sea mariner]

Hola Amigos.

The story below may of been a story of phantom secret cargo?

A James Eagles an Australian researcher and author was ridiculed by marine archaeologist and historians. His thesis claimed HMS Sydney the Australian warship that was sunk in 1941 with no survivors by the German Raider Kormoran , was carrying gold? The Australia government denied that any gold was on the Sydney as fanciful rumors.

Mr James Eagles wrote a book entitled HMAS Sydney II and Operation Fish 1941, self-published in 2003. The theory he advanced in the book was that two Dutch submarines had transported gold reserves from Singapore to a planned meeting with SYDNEY after she had parted from ZEALANDIA. He wrote:It is also highly likely that on or around November 14, the gold was loaded onto the Dutch submarines.

Both submarines then stood by to meet with the Sydney at a secret rendezvous designated for 17 November 1941, the day after Sydney was to hand over the Zealandia to the Durban, just south of Sunda Strait. Possibly personal items of Chiang Kai-shek and the Dalai Lama were also included … After handing over the Zealandia, Sydney would then meet with the submarines and use her crane to load the gold for shipment to Fremantle Australia.

The gold reserves were said to have been transferred at sea to HMS SYDNEY.His thesis was that the Dutch needed to be re-supplied with ammunition:Therefore, the ammunition loaded onto Sydney was probably being sent to re-supply the Dutch. This achieved two aims, to get ammunition to the 6-inch guns in Java, and serve as ballast on the submarines to replace the weight of the gold to be unloaded.

Mr Eagles explained the storage of the gold on SYDNEY:It is possible that Y turret, having used its ready-use ammunition, was unable to be supplied with more ammunition from the shell handling room and magazine simply because it may have been full of boxes of gold bars.

He asserted that CAPT Detmers of the German Raider Kormoran was aware of the date of the rendezvous between SYDNEY and the submarines: The Germans may have known the rendezvous date. Captain Detmers confirmed two dates that indicate he was aware of a rendezvous. After the re-supply from the Kulmerland (between 16 and 26 October and on departing from Kulmerland) the captain of the Kormoran sent a short signal to Germany:

“SUPPLY SHIP DETACHED RENDEZVOUS 17 TH DAY FOLLOWING MONTH. SCHIFF 41”

The “17th day following month” was 17 November. It appears more than just a co-incidence, as Detmers had no known rendezvous to keep in the following month.During October, the date set for the handover of Zealander was up to 13 days earlier, so that could not be the rendezvous mentioned by Detmers. Somehow, Detmers was aware of the 17th as part of Sydney’s schedule and was ordered to intercept, trap or destroy her any way he could, even at the cost of his own ship. Nevertheless, he may not have been aware of the exact nature of the rendezvous and, due to problems of his own, was forced to lay in wait until the Sydney finished her
business and was returning to Australia alone.

He concluded:The Sydney left her escort duties to deliver munitions to the Dutch, and substantial evidence shows that the probable cargo on Sydney for her return journey to Australia was nearly the entire gold reserves of Hong Kong and Singapore. Because Sydney’s magazines were filled with the gold, it enabled her to be out-gunned by Kormoran.

Considering the times, the prevailing politics, the types of modus operandi and the conjunction of events during the early 1940s, it is entirely probable that the HMAS Sydney’s crew went to their eternal sleep with gold bars for their pillows—cold comfort indeed for the families indeed.

The court of inquiry dismissed James Eagles claims that the Australian Government knew about the gold and covered it up as a big conspiracy theory?

David Mearns had first found the shipwreck. And identified the Sydney beyond doubt. 2 expeditions to the wreck site was done.

Be here is a twist a seaman I met was actually a crew member on a Australian nautical researched ship. Sailed on a third voyage that was not in the public eye. The was forced to sign confidentiality agreements was not allow to have any smart phones on the voyage. Was not allowed to go near the operations room of research or operation deck having 2 submersibles. The archaeologists involved never once showed any interest sharing any info in what they was doing at the wreck site. Most of crew was locked out of the actual intentions of the project.

What this seaman could not understand was why the big secret? It was already discovered that shipwreck was known and filmed extensively. They spent nearly 3 weeks over the wreck site.

Was there actually a secret Australian recovery of gold off the Wreck of the Sydney? Or just another conspiracy theory based on random assumptions?

One thing I know for sure the seaman was actually a crew member of this research vessel at time of this alleged third expedition. About 3 years ago now?

Mal

 

[Darren in NC]

I mentioned the gold to David Mearns years ago, and he vehemently denied it. Said I was crazy. I had some circumstantial evidence of it, but he wasn't even interested in looking at it. Something felt strange about the whole encounter. I suspected he was hired by the Australian gov't, and wanted to keep it all hush-hush.