K G C 1865 Knife

[Cariboo5]

I purchased this knife from New York. The knife is over 15 inches, the guard and trim are not magnetic. The handle is a spiral grooved dowel pin wrapped with a single piece of leather. (was able to see this from the gap due to shrinkage) The blade has never been sharpened which leads me to believe this appears to be more of a ceremony knife and not one used for battle etc. With knife in hand it looks like from the period of 1865 with the wear pattern and patina. In researching I have found there is very little about KGC artifacts and items that have initials or signs on them that one can compare to.

Although this was listed as authentic at this point I am not certain if it is or if it is a fantasy piece. Any information, opinions, comments and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks to all in advance..

 

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[alec]

If it's real I would agree it is probably ceremonial however, how is the lettering applied to the blade? It doesn't look stamped or etched. Generally there is a makers mark on knives near the tang and handle where you have the the intials. Without a makers mark that would mean the knife was probably made before the 1890's if it is real. With that said, the petina on it looks awful even or uniform and there seems to be an outline of petina or no petina around the lettering.

You might try a local antique dealer that knows something about knives or weapons or even a Civil War forum.

 

[Cariboo5]

alec...Appreciate your comments and great questions. In regards to your questions:

-The blade is etched and the letters and numbers are slightly raised.
-The only marks near the handle blade area is what shows, I am not certain if these could be a makers mark or the initials for whom this was made.
-Good point about the patina. Some times pictures do not show every thing as it is. The patina is fairly even as you pointed out, but not completely through out. Picture of one of the letters attached.
- I have sent several pictures to civil war sites, antique dealers etc. Only one replied that this is a fantasy piece, how ever has never seen one before.
- A friend of mine here is a black smith and when compared to some old knives he has from the late 1800's and early 1900's the wear pattern and patina look very close. He is of the opinion it is real.
- Having the advantage of it in hand and looking under the microscope it does appear to be of the period stated on the blade.

I must say that I have searched alot online for KGC and this thread is the best I have found with input on all sorts of items, symbols, maps etc.

Thanks again alec.

 

[alec]

I would say that the initials are probably for who the knife was made or who they want you to think the kife was made for. These are to big to be a makers mark. It could very well be an old knife that someone has manipulated into a KGC knife and it could be the real deal. The skeptic in me says to go with caution. If the letters are raised it would seem that they would have had to have been part of a casting and not from the normal way a knife would have been made in the 1800's. I'm definitely not an expert and it's a cool looking knife but something about it just doesn't seem right to me. Maybe I'm just too skeptical.

 

[Walker Colt]

Try asking the Amercan Bladesmith Society, http://www.americanbladesmith.com/. They would know the old methods of engraving, etc...
Just by what we know about the degree work for Knight of the Iron Hand, True Faith, and Columbian Star my first guess would be it is a fake. There is no mention in the degree work for a knife or dagger that I can remember off the top of my head. But I hope I'm wrong because it would be a great find. I hope those guys can help you.

 

[Cariboo5]

Walker Colt...Thanks for the lead, I sent an email with pictures, will wait and post what they say (hopefully they will answer).

I suppose if there is a positive it would be that from all the researching I have done I have not been able to find any items connected to the KGC that are fakes.

As mentioned earlier the knife to me looks real, how ever it is the lettering and numbers that I am not sure of.

This forum is a huge plus for me as my knowledge of the KGC is limited and with the experience and willingness of members to share their information I am confident that the mystery of this knife will be solved.

 

[Cariboo5]

Received an answer on the knife. This is not authentic from the period of the 1860's, but was made in the 1960's or 70's. I still like the knife how ever it would be better if it was from the period. Win some lose some....

 

[alec]

Thanks for the update! Sorry it wasn't what you though it was but at least you were looking for the right answers.

 

[Cariboo5]

alec..yes thanks to this thread and the lead from Walker Colt I was able to find out. As you mentioned I was hoping for a different outcome. Having said that I still am pleased with the knife and if the day comes that I might want to sell it I will be able to give a proper and honest description.

 

[goverton]

sure looks like knifes I have seen on a couple of maps(TH) from that period and a few marked on rocks. Whoever did it
was trying to fool someone to buying it.

 

[fenixdigger]

I would remove the handle and examine the tang. That and the inside of the handle could hold clues hidden in the way KGC would put them.

 

[goverton]

I would remove the handle and examine the tang. That and the inside of the handle could hold clues hidden in the way KGC would put them.

Do What?

If this knife has any value as an antique, I would not mess with taking it apart. You may ruin it's overall value.

 

[Cariboo5]

goverton is exactly right..As with any item vintage or antique one never messes with it by cleaning, taking apart etc as any value will decrease.

I am told the blade is from an old sword base and although not from the period stated on the blade it still is a collectable item.. I may not be as knowledgeable as many others here about the KGC..But how many knives like this are there??

 

[cccalco]

Received an answer on the knife. This is not authentic from the period of the 1860's, but was made in the 1960's or 70's. I still like the knife how ever it would be better if it was from the period. Win some lose some....

1965?

 

[Cariboo5]

cccalco...No exact date was given, just in the 1960's I was informed..

 

[cccalco]

cccalco...No exact date was given, just in the 1960's I was informed..

Just curious since the date on the knife is 1865 and what historical significance that 1865 might have for anyone interested in the KGC. If this commemorative knife was a centennial memento then it could have been made in/for 1965. It seems to have all the quality of something that was mass marketed except for the lack of proof stamps or makers marks on the blade and its apparent lack of siblings among collectors.

If you google "knights of the Golden Circle + 1865" you get:
The War Between the States ended with the fall of the Confederacy
Richmond, Virginia, the Confederate capital, evacuated April 2, 1865
Gen. Lee surrenders April 7, 1865
Lincoln was shot by Booth on April 14, 1865
Jefferson Davis was captured in Georgia on May 10, 1865
Brig. Gen. Stand Watie, the last confederate general to surrender ... June 23, 1865
Ku Klux Klan was created in Pulaski, Tennessee, December 24, 1865

and questionably:

"The Knights of the Golden Circle reorganized in early 1865 as The Order of the Sons of Liberty" (it was actually 1864)
and
"Knights of the Golden Circle ... In the spring of 1865, the group made the first of two attempts to invade Mexico" (it was actually 1860)

 

[cccalco]

Is this your knife or a similar one?

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/photopanel.cgi?listingid=1213588&category=0&zip=&kwd=

http://www.hessegalleries.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=61&page=view&catid=1514&key=129&hit=1

http://www.nwwone.org/world-war/RAR...E-ORDER-THE-SONS-OF-LIBERTY_230680257538.html

 

[Cariboo5]

I got this knife from a fellow in New York, and after speaking with him.. Yes all 3 links you have provided are of the same knife and Yes this is the knife....

In all the research I have done..These are the only references that come up showing a KGC knife.

cccalco....very interesting point you mentioned re: 1965 and the examples of the different events that occured in 1865 or believed to be in 1865. So far I have come up empty handed in finding any thing in relatiohship with the events and any commemorative items in my research.

 

[Lanny in AB]

Cool knife--thanks for the pics!

All the best,

Lanny