Interesting Buckle & Mystery Brass Relic

[ANTIQUARIAN]

In 2013 I found this bronze 'Dapper' buckle on a horse farm which dates to the 1880s.
To-date, I've been unsuccessful in researching the patent number and more importantly, how this buckle was used.

The brass relic fragment I found last year on an c1820 homestead site that was originally settled by a pair of War of 1812 veteran brothers from New York.
It is about 2mm thick, it appears to have 'ribs' pressed into the brass running the length of the piece, which I assume is to give it strength.
It appears to have been broken off at the bottom... the 'three anchors' makers mark is also something I've been unable to find online.

Please excuse my crude restoration attempt I just wanted to keep the two pieces together as it broke when I removed it from the hole.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Dave

 

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[nhbenz]

Here’s your buckle with the belt it would have originally been with: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slim-Vinta...Belt-Dapper-Bronze-Buckle-Sz-32-/391991298803
And here’s the patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US2467006

 

[nhbenz]

I thought the other piece looked familiar: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/544177-anchor-mark-brass-mystery.html

 

[ARC]

I never did buy into the shoehorn I.D.

Metal was way too thin for that.

Same mark yes.

 

[ARC]

They never made thin crap for anything that was a "tool" ... ever.

 

[ARC]

Its a makers mark... and I still to this day lean to chime.

 

[ARC]

Furthermore... the "cut" of metal is crude / sharp... which also IMO takes this out of the "tool" / "shoehorn" realm.

 

[rick67]

I'll vote with chime also.

 

[nhbenz]

They never made thin crap for anything that was a "tool" ... ever.

Who is They?

 

[ARC]

Who is They?

You know... "them".

:P

 

[ARC]

"Generally" speaking... In days of old... things were never made "cheaply"... or half assed... pride and detail was taken in crafting almost everything.

Not like today. heh

 

[ARC]

Shoehorns must endure stress and resist bending... and sometimes are "wrenched" into shoe etc...
if you have ever had to use one then you know what I am referring to.

Anything as thin and made from a malleable metal such as copper or brass would have had to been with appropriate thickness to resist bending.

This item has none of an apparent / appropriate thickness for this... and also other item in referenced post.

Then there is the overall craftsmanship... mainly the edges and "finishing" ,,, again apparent in this item... The edges are way too sharp to be inserted into a shoe... let alone to be held and wrenched with any force without possible damage to foot OR hand.

With these facts... IMO this rules out anything other than a chime clapper.

The shoehorn posted in the other thread does in fact have the same mark... BUT... if you look... the thickness and finished edges are totally different...
which only says to me that the same maker made both items... prolly with plethora of other items.

I am sure this wont be the last time we see this mark on here.

 

[huntsman53]

Good id nhbenz on the buckle! As far as the brass piece with the three anchor Maker's Mark goes, I believe it may be a flap for protection for a sighting device or flap for signaling of a signaling device off a ship or a cover/flap from candle holder on a ship. I believe that apparently came with only the one hole and the hole allowed the flap to be moved back and forth or side to side whichever way you want to view it and that it likely dates fairly close to the War of 1812.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

NHBenz wrote:
> Who is "they?"

Ever since I watched Sam Peckinpah's superb movie "The Wild Bunch" back in 1969, whenever I hear somebody ask "Who is they?" I think of that question and answer from a scene in the movie. After the Bunch has robbed a bank and suffered heavy casualties while escaping the town, the bags of gold coins from the bank are discovered to be filled with steel washers. Here it is:

Tector Gorch: Silver rings.
Dutch Engstrom: [upset] "Silver rings", your butt! Them's washers! Damn!
Lyle Gorch: Washers. Washers. We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!
Pike Bishop: They set it up.
Lyle Gorch: "They"? Who in the hell is "they?"
Sykes: [laughs hysterically] "They"? Why, they is the plain and fancy they, that's who "they" is!
Caught you, didn't they? Tied a tin can to your tail. Led you in and waltzed you out again. Oh my, what a bunch! Big tough ones, hunh? Here you are with a handful of holes, a thumb up your ass, and a big grin to pass the time of day with. They? Who the hell is "they?"
Pike Bishop: Railroad men... bounty hunters... Deke Thornton.


(2 minutes 35 seconds)

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Interestingy, the emblem on the unknown brass object is the exact emblem (an upright oval with an anchor flanked by two smaller anchors) on an 1805-1812 British Navy "Master" (rank) button.
Diana's Buttons - Reference - British Navy Buttons

 

[ARC]

Wind chimes and vanes...

You would think both would be a common find amongst Mdr's ... for everyone in days of old had either a chime or a vane or both.

There were a few main reasons everyone had one... one was an enduring belief that chimes kept bad spirits away... but mostly as an everyday tool they were essential.

There was no "weatherman" or someone to tell you what the weather was going to be... so chimes were used to tell changes ahead of time in the weather.

Captains used chimes and vanes to read / predict a time or a day to depart on a voyage... seeking the best of weather for their journey.

You would think they would be a common find and posted more here... But I imagine most pieces found are considered... "just a hunk of metal".

Which makes total sense.

Anyway... just a thought to share.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Here’s your buckle with the belt it would have originally been with: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slim-Vinta...Belt-Dapper-Bronze-Buckle-Sz-32-/391991298803
And here’s the patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US2467006

Thanks very much for the info on the 'Sportsman' Dapper Buckle Ben.
This is the first similar example I've ever seen.
Dave

I thought the other piece looked familiar: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/544177-anchor-mark-brass-mystery.html

As you know, the membership here shrinks and expands almost as often as my waistline does these days.
Sometimes new blood brings new theories.
Dave

I never did buy into the shoehorn I.D.

Metal was way too thin for that.

Same mark yes.

As you mentioned, it's definitely too thin for a shoehorn.... quite possibly repurposed as a wind chime from something else though.

"Generally" speaking... In days of old... things were never made "cheaply"... or half assed... pride and detail was taken in crafting almost everything.

Not like today. heh

This is something that I like to say as well... "they don't make things like they used too."
Most everything made these days is meant to be thrown away.

My daughter still can't believe it when I take the time to iron a shirt or repair a hole in my winter leather mitts or in one of her sweaters.
This is the main reason why I tumble anything worth preserving for future generations, no matter how mundane or common the relic.

Shoehorns must endure stress and resist bending... and sometimes are "wrenched" into shoe etc...
if you have ever had to use one then you know what I am referring to.

Anything as thin and made from a malleable metal such as copper or brass would have had to been with appropriate thickness to resist bending.

This item has none of an apparent / appropriate thickness for this... and also other item in referenced post.

Then there is the overall craftsmanship... mainly the edges and "finishing" ,,, again apparent in this item... The edges are way too sharp to be inserted into a shoe... let alone to be held and wrenched with any force without possible damage to foot OR hand.

With these facts... IMO this rules out anything other than a chime clapper.

The shoehorn posted in the other thread does in fact have the same mark... BUT... if you look... the thickness and finished edges are totally different...
which only says to me that the same maker made both items... prolly with plethora of other items.

I am sure this wont be the last time we see this mark on here.

I just love it when you go off on a rant buddy, it warms the cockles of my heart.

Good id nhbenz on the buckle! As far as the brass piece with the three anchor Maker's Mark goes, I believe it may be a flap for protection for a sighting device or flap for signaling of a signaling device off a ship or a cover/flap from candle holder on a ship. I believe that apparently came with only the one hole and the hole allowed the flap to be moved back and forth or side to side whichever way you want to view it and that it likely dates fairly close to the War of 1812.

This is an amazing theory huntsman, as the two brothers who originally settled this site fought in the War of 1812 for the British.
The piece has obviously been modified from it's original design... so maybe it is "a flap for protection for a sighting device or flap for signaling of a signaling device off a ship or a cover/flap from candle holder."

Thanks very much for sharing your theory,
Dave

NHBenz wrote:
> Who is "they?"

Ever since I watched Sam Peckinpah's superb movie "The Wild Bunch" back in 1969, whenever I hear somebody ask "Who is they?" I think of that question and answer from a scene in the movie. After the Bunch has robbed a bank and suffered heavy casualties while escaping the town, the bags of gold coins from the bank are discovered to be filled with steel washers. Here it is:

Tector Gorch: Silver rings.
Dutch Engstrom: [upset] "Silver rings", your butt! Them's washers! Damn!
Lyle Gorch: Washers. Washers. We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!
Pike Bishop: They set it up.
Lyle Gorch: "They"? Who in the hell is "they?"
Sykes: [laughs hysterically] "They"? Why, they is the plain and fancy they, that's who "they" is!
Caught you, didn't they? Tied a tin can to your tail. Led you in and waltzed you out again. Oh my, what a bunch! Big tough ones, hunh? Here you are with a handful of holes, a thumb up your ass, and a big grin to pass the time of day with. They? Who the hell is "they?"
Pike Bishop: Railroad men... bounty hunters... Deke Thornton.

I love this movie too!
This reminds me of the scene from Sleepless in Seattle where Tom Hanks makes fun of the movie 'The Dirty Dozen'!

Wind chimes and vanes...

You would think both would be a common find amongst Mdr's ... for everyone in days of old had either a chime or a vane or both.

There were a few main reasons everyone had one... one was an enduring belief that chimes kept bad spirits away... but mostly as an everyday tool they were essential.

There was no "weatherman" or someone to tell you what the weather was going to be... so chimes were used to tell changes ahead of time in the weather.

Captains used chimes and vanes to read / predict a time or a day to depart on a voyage... seeking the best of weather for their journey.

You would think they would be a common find and posted more here... But I imagine most pieces found are considered... "just a hunk of metal".

Which makes total sense.

Anyway... just a thought to share.

This is very true about, "the enduring belief that chimes kept bad spirits away... but mostly as an everyday tool they were essential."
I can't say that I've ever heard of anyone posting a wind chime that they found metal detecting though.

The good news is, the snow has almost melted here in Southern Ontario and the temps are going to be above 5c (40F) this week.
I'm hoping to be back on two homestead sites in farm fields next Sunday morning... I hope.

Thanks very much for everyone's theories, you all make this a great site to spend our spare time on!
Dave

 

[ARC]

Antiquarian... You my friend... are a pinnacle member of TreasureNet IMO...

It is responses like this that address others posts that make Tnet a better place and makes users feel "acknowledged.".

Thank you for taking the time to do so.

I for one appreciate them.

You post finds... You solve finds... you reply to posts... you "like" button peoples posts... you definitely make Tnet a "better site" by being a part IMO.

Thank you.

ARC

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Antiquarian... You my friend... are a pinnacle member of TreasureNet IMO...

It is responses like this that address others posts that make Tnet a better place and makes users feel "acknowledged.".

Thank you for taking the time to do so.

I for one appreciate them.

You post finds... You solve finds... you reply to posts... you "like" button peoples posts... you definitely make Tnet a "better site" by being a part IMO.

Thank you.

ARC

Thank you for your praise my friend, it's nice just to hang out with folks that are all passionate about history and detecting.
I also feel that well all have a responsibility to pass on the experience we have to those who will take the time to listen/read what we write.

I became a member of Tnet the year I started detecting and have never really left. I was the moderator of a Canadian Metal Detecting site for almost 5 years, but that ended in October over a disagreement with how the forums were being managed. This is why you've been seeing so much of me here on Tnet lately.

Thanks again for your support and I always enjoy reading what you write ARC.
Dave

 

[Reanm8er]

Part of a naval officer's epaulette?