Indain Points of Western Oklahoma

[docmann]

Hello,
I'm new to the site. I'm a surface hunter of Indian artifacts in the western Oklahoma area, especially around Clinton. I've had some success over the past couple of years. Would like to hear of any success (or lack thereof) stories. I have a few photos of pieces of marginal interest that I'd like to share if anyone is interested.
docmann

 

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[docmann]

BJ,
I only rarely use a metal detector. For the most part, I'm a surface hunter of stone artifacts. My brother, who responds to "Sharpshooter" is much more adept with the MD. He is located in the central part of the state. My finds in this area are largely related to the Wichita People, a semi-nomadic tribe that existed here in the AD 1200 to 1450 time frame, or so I am told. I have a few pieces related to the mighty Cheyenne nation as they existed in and around this area in the mid to late 1800s. I do have a few pieces of history related to the Battle of the Washita, the confrontation between Custer and his 7th Cavalry, and Cheyenne chief Black Kettle. The Plains Indians are of great interest to me, especially the Cheyenne, Arapaho, Comanche, and Kiowa.
I have attached a photo of two Black Hematite Celts found last fall. The numbers behind the pieces represent a cm scale. These pieces are incredibly smooth, and contain enough iron to strongly attract a magnet.
I'll attempt to post regularly in the event there are some pieces of interest to any of the subscribers.
Thanks, BJ, for the inquiry.
docmann

 

[docmann]

I've added a couple of other photos. These two items, while not that remarkable, are most striking for their color (which, incidentally, didn't reproduce well in these photos!). The first is a little blue Wichita point, and the second is an attractive little red bird point. These were both picked up in northern Wasita county (purposely misspelled to circumvent the sensor machine). I wish the color reproduced clearly as these are really eye-grabbers. Again, I know these are small potatoes to many of you, but the color of these two small items is really exceptional.
docmann

 

[BJ in Okla.]

Nice Arrow heads,

But I am still trying to figure out what the first picture was.
Did you take the pictures or scan the arrow heads
Nice...BJ

 

[docmann]

BJ,
Both pieces were photographed under a magnifying glass. That's why the edges are blurred. I've developed a little better technique since then, but I have several photos with blurred edges.
docmann

 

[docmann]

If you'll forgive me for deviating from the theme of the topic (Indian Points), I'd like to show off a piece found this past year in far west Oklahoma. This brass bridle rosette was found just east of the Antelope Hills. This was the route Custer's 7th Cavalry took to strike Black Kettle on the Wash*ta river in November 1868. He crossed it again with General Sheridan in pursuit of Cheyenne and Kiowa Indians in route to Ft. Cobb. Of course it could have dropped from the bridle of horses of other expeditions, but Custer's travels in this area are will documented and his bunch rode right over the ground where this was found (without the aid of a metal detector).

 

[okietreasurehunter]

I've got a map that Joe Hunter had that marks the camping area of Custer up by what is now Foss Lake. I've found a number of points as well. Very few here in Oklahoma though. I'd like to spend more time hunting points, but farmers around here don't plow deep like they use to. Most of the points I find now are in old road beds or dry creeks. I do have a nice spot out in Kentucky I visit from time to time that has always produced nice points.

http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

 

[docmann]

2Late,
Interesting, I had an older fellow tell me of a number of points he found around Foss lake. I wouldn't have ever really imagined it but I guess it's true.
I'm not a farmer, but I have also heard the same about the depth of plowing. Apparently methods used today don't require such deep cutting. I suspect, however that an additionally 4" to 6" would sure help shuffle the deck. Most of my finds are between Foss and Clinton. There are a number of old, deep creeks, and that landscape with hills and valleys apparently was desirable for primitive campsites. At least one of the sites that I work has been formally excavated by OU, and the deep digging and refill continues to lend itself to artifacts. That's where the larger celt was found.
Thanks for the interest.
Mark
PS, Apparently, Custer must have made quite an impression on the folks out here in western Oklahoma. I live in Custer county, and not too far off of Custer Avenue. Not too far north and east of me is Custer City.
PSS, I've attached a photo of my daughter during one of our trips out. Notice the landscape behind her. It still looks like a Cheyenne raiding party could top the hills at any minute.

 

[okietreasurehunter]

Creek beds have been pretty good for finding points. My father-in-law found a small celt that had washed out onto a dirt road. I've found plenty of points, knives, drills, and scrapers, but never a celt. That's a nice one you found. I'd like to detect the Custer campsite but it on the refuge there at Foss Lake, so I'm out of luck there. The map I have does show another spot further southeast that is on private land though. I think this was another campsite. I've got some friends in Caddo County who pump wells that have found points in the dirt berms around the tanks.

 

[RGINN]

Docmann: Welcome to Tnet. I like that photo of your daughter because I know exactly where it was taken, south of Foss at the Turkey Creek site. This was a very large village site that I-40 cut through and OU comes out and conducts a study every so often. I have found many arrowheads and related artifacts around Foss Lake. I even found a prehistoric elephant skeleton in the Sandy Beach area once and reported it to the Park Office, in case they wanted to excavate it. Anyway, I have a copy of the Oklahoma archaeological survey published in 1985 for several state parks, among them Foss Lake. They list 22 sites within the park boundaries. As to Custer, there is a site on a bluff in the Panther Creek area that I could not get into as the oil companies had the gates locked. There is possibly another site along Oak Creek south east of the dam. This is where the park ranger came down and told me I couldn't be on that road. The Survey locates sites for Custer and the 7th Cavalry in the sw1/4 of section 20, Township 13 North, Range 19 West. This is listed on the Master Site Plot for the Foss Project as "7th Cavalry" The Great Western Cattle Trail passed through close to here. To the southeast, of this location is listed an 1875(?) camp of Custer. In the vicinity of where Hines Creek joins the Was-hita River is listed a soldier's camp. Sometimes there is an advantage to being a native of Oklahoma and growing up here, as you know all the good places to go hunt arrowheads. (2nd terrace above every waterway) Here's a pic of a dart point and a section of a pipe that were surface finds at the 5 Acre site, 34CU91, S1/4, SE1/4, S35, T14N, R20W.

 

[RGINN]

Something else I wanted to mention to you Docmann. Report the sites you find to the Oklahoma Archaeology Survey, 405-325-7211. They're very receptive to guys like us and every once in a while we come up with something they don't know about. Dr. Richard Drass has walked many miles in Custer and Caddo Counties checking out sites. He has done a lot of work on the Little Deer site, east of Weatherford where Little Deer runs into Deer Creek. I was very interested in the celt you found, as I have one just like it, sans the hematite. My Grandpa found it north of Hydro above the South Canadian River. I had never seen one like it, and thought it might have been a trade item from the east. Since you have one, maybe they were made in the areas they were found.

 

[docmann]

2Late and RGINN,
I've never hunted the lake, but think it would be interesting. I have a number of friends and patients that are in and around that area who might help us out. I hunt between Foss and Clinton, and that's where I located the larger celt. It would be interesting to see the map you have of the Foss area. Have they suggested that MD is off limits? How about plain old surface hunting for stone artifacts? I have permission to hunt the Heerwald site as I am well-acquainted with both the land owner and the farmers currently leasing the property. There's still just a little bare ground to see, but the wheat is about to cover us up within the next month.
RGINN
I sent a photo to the OAS and was contacted by a very helpful consultant who was able to provide a great deal of information. He too wanted to see a photo, and if you're interested, I'll forward some of his comments.
One of my most interesting spots is out in the Antelope Hills area, but at this time of the year, it's real "hit and miss".
I'll attempt to nail down the S Canadian site from my friend and see how much trouble it would be accessing that site.
PS See attached a photo of the Heerwald site. You'll probably remember this one.
Mark

 

[okietreasurehunter]

RGINN, Joe had the site on Panther Creek marked as a soldiers camp. The one on Oak Creek he had marked as Custers 1875 camp, but he also had the one southeast marked as well. There's a rock crossing he marked on the map between the two. There are also a number of places he had circled but didn't have any notations for them. Since Foss is a national wildlife refuge all types of hunting would be against the law. Even surface hunting. The Custer site southeast is on private land though!

http://okietreasurehunter.blogspot.com/

 

[RGINN]

Docmann, thank you for contacting OAS. PM me with what they had to say. 2Late is right about no collecting in the federal wildlife refuge part, and before I go to jail I will clarify that the 5 Acre site is bigger than listed in the survey and extends outside government boundaries. As to metal detecting in State Parks, I worked for the Okla. Dept. of Tourism & Recreation for 7 years. At that time, the policy was that the Park Manager could issue you a permit to metal detect within the State Park areas, which is the south half of Foss Lake. Talk with these guys and let them know what you want to do. Let them know you're not going to come in with a back-hoe and keep them posted of any significant historical finds. Things like that enhance the park and possibly will draw more visitors in. I'm pretty big on discovering history. It would be great if the BLM would allow guys like you and 2late to go to these cattle crossings and military camps and examine the sites with metal detectors in a controlled situation, same as they did at the Little BigHorn a few years ago. And there is the story of a soldier burying his gambling winnings somewhere in the area....

 

[docmann]

RGINN
By the way, you're right on the money with the location of the photo. You have to admit that area would make a great backdrop for an old-time Western Cowboy and Indian movie. We are just south of Turkey Creek in this photo. I've walked over the banks of that creek once and found, I'm almost certain, a human humerus (arm bone). Of course, I left it there in compliance with the The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA). Also, I found a human molar (tooth) in that same area. I'll shoot you a copy of the archeologist's comments via email.

2late
You and RGINN need to check out the web site below. It's an interesting story about a murder on Turkey Creek back in the 1800's.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v012/v012p258.html

If either of you become ambitious about working the South Canadian, I'll try to set something up sometime. I'd be happy to take you by the Heerwald site as well. As I mentioned, it's about covered with wheat, but with the current drought, there is still some bare ground to see. Just like this past year, I anticipate being front and center this next summer immediately after harvest and plowing.
Thanks guys,
Mark

 

[okietreasurehunter]

I've read about the soldier burying his winnings. I think it was recovered near a large tree if I remember right. It may have been in an old copy of the Chronicles of Oklahoma. I'll try and search for the story. I'd love to check out the spots I marked for the camps. If the state would issue a permit that would be great. I could contact the county to see who owns the private land. Mark you might already know who it is. You can e-mail me at [email protected] RGINN you need to make it back out this way sometime.

 

[RGINN]

Docmann-great story in the Chronicles of Oklahoma. 2late, I get down there about 2 or 3 times a year now. I could get us all in a lot of trouble, but we'd have fun doing it. Actually, I have a lot of contacts in northern Caddo County and Blaine and Custer County and am able to get permission to go in on their land and detect or search for artifacts. They will generally point out areas of interest or things they have found. For the most part they are history conscious and want any significant finds handled properly. To date, I have been able to metal detect in most of the parks in Western Oklahoma, as long as I make management aware of what I'm doing and inform them if I find anything really cool. I usually give the park office historic artifacts if they want them and I keep all the change lost by campers. As far as arrowhead hunting, mostly all I do in Oklahoma now is go out and check the sites and make sure they're still intact and nobody has been pot-hunting them. Here's a couple of modern treasure stories that I have personal knowledge of. In the cove at the entrance to the west RV Campground at Ft. Cobb State Park, a skier lost a diamond tennis bracelet on the water a few years back. She said it was worth $10,000, but I figure it was worth at least half that. Someday that will wash up on shore. On up in the campground in area 2, where they have an open recreation area for volleyball and such, a gold baseball mitt necklace was lost. I tried to find this for the grandpa who bought it for his grandson, but had no luck. It's probably still there, unless somebody beat us to it and picked it up. Later, ya'll.

 

[fossis]

Welcome docmann
I hunt for Artifacts in Eastern OK, mostly (Caddo), the fields around here are not plowed much anymore, so
have to hunt riverbanks, & gullys.
I worked for six months at 'Spiro mounds', & on my lunchbreak, would search the adjoining plowed fields for Artifacts.
I also traded & bought several nice points from the locals, including two (Turkeytail) spearpoints.

Fossis..............

 

[docmann]

Fossis,
I would imagine that being in on the Spiro mounds project would be an incedible experience. I suspect quite a learning experience. Do you generallly find the creek beds productive? I hear a lot about those, but I've had almost no luck in creek or river beds. However, I can't say that I've devoted a great deal of time and effort to such. And as you well know, we're not blessed with an abundance of creek beds out here in the Great Plains. Thanks for the welcome, and I'd like to see some of your pieces. Give me a whistle if you ever get out this way.
See ya,
docmann

 

[fossis]

Fossis,
I would imagine that being in on the Spiro mounds project would be an incedible experience. I suspect quite a learning experience. Do you generallly find the creek beds productive? I hear a lot about those, but I've had almost no luck in creek or river beds. However, I can't say that I've devoted a great deal of time and effort to such. And as you well know, we're not blessed with an abundance of creek beds out here in the Great Plains. Thanks for the welcome, and I'd like to see some of your pieces. Give me a whistle if you ever get out this way.
See ya,
docmann

I was just working, (sprucing up the place), but a friend of mine helped to reconstruct the Craig mound from
old photos furnished by the locals, I spent lunch hours sometimes reading their collection of books
The South Canadian river has given up lots of Artifacts, fossil bones, longhorn steer heads, bison heads, (I traded for one), &
something you would have an intrest in, (an old copper dr. kit), complete with bottles.
I have seen vertabre from things we didn't have a clue, petrified turtle shells,mastodon teeth, (I have the tip of a tusk), & of
course (Indian bones), which we don't collect.

I have read stories of mules & wagons even going down in the 'quicksand', the gravel bars are the place to look.
My collection of Artifacts is on page 9 in Indian Artifacts, including one of the (Turkeytails).

Fossis..............