darksky1x
Jr. Member
- Oct 21, 2017
- 32
- 33
- Detector(s) used
- Do not use, I specialize in e-scrap
- Primary Interest:
- Other
How to Shave off a Few Pounds and I'm Not Talking About Your Waist
By Larry D Hollifield
By Larry D Hollifield
First off let me say I am no "newcomer" when it comes to scrap. I worked in the HVAC/Plumbing trades on large commercial projects the majority of my life. The largest copper pipe I've ever worked with is 10" Type K. Needless to say there's a lot of weight to any #1 copper when your talking 10" K. My largest ever payday was right at $5000.00 about 20 years back when copper prices were much lower than they are now.
After I retired, my trips to the scrap yard seemed to be every few year as opposed to every few months like when I was in the field. Experience is probably the best teacher anyone can have when trying to get a handle on the scrap trade. Early on in my scrap selling I learned very fast that regardless where you take your metal there are certain practices by scrap yards that you need to be aware of and protect yourself from so you always get the maximum value for the material you sell.
I remember the first couple of times I sold copper pipe & fittings to a scrap yard, call it "The Price of an Education" and learning the difference between #1 & #2, even though the difference is very simple: #1 is clean, copper pipe solder-free (no fittings and no dripped solder on it).; #2 is and pipe, valves, fittings that have any solder on them. Simple, right? Well, when a scrap yard is involved, nothing is simple! Scrap yards are very ruthless and are always looking for an angle. What do I mean by that? Just this; I took a load of clean #1 copper pipe to the yard, guessing it would net a few hundred dollars. After the scale attendant weighed it, dumped and quickly sorted through it he found two very small pieces of 1/2" pipe with a fitting soldered on each that I had missed. He downgraded the entire load from #1 to #2 copper and my "few hundred dollars" load took a nose dive and I walked away with considerably less than I was expecting. From that point on I became very meticulous when separating the #1 from the #2 copper. No more load downgrades for me!
I learned a similar lesson when I sold my first load of brass. It was yellow and red brass mixed together. However after weighing it instead of giving me the going rate for either yellow or red brass the scrap yard labeled the entire load as "mixed brass" and payed me considerably less than the going rate for either red or yellow brass. Costly lesson but one well learned.
Another "slick trick" that I had pulled on me a few times before I got wise to what was happening is how the scrap yard would never let me see the scale totals when they weighed my material. After all items were weighed, remover to their appropriate metal processing piles and/or containers they would hand me a ticket with a few numbers on it and tell me to take it to the pay window. The person behind the fenced window would take the paper, move over a few feet to an adding machine just out of sight, return and hand me some money and a ticket with the total scrap weights and dollar value on it as a receipt. It didn't take but a few trips before I was positive that the weights they were paying me for were considerably less than the actual scrap weight I sold them.
Another hard, costly but well learned lesson. Now nothing I sell (and I do mean nothing) ever leaves my shop before it is sorted, classified, weighed and a total cash value based on the current prices for the yard I am going to are worked out. I don't like being in the dark and I don't like surprises, especially when it involves money, my money!
Next lesson learned was the "get you on the container weight" trick. I delivered a load of #1 & #2 copper which I had very carefully separated putting all of the #2 fittings in some of the buckets and all the small #1 pieces of pipe in different 5 gallon buckets. It was a large load and there was maybe 20- 5 gallon buckets total. After the scale attendant finished weighing the material, removed the material from the area of the scale and emptied the buckets in their corresponding containers, the final step in the weigh-in process is always the same, place the empty containers back on the scales and subtracting the container weights from the appropriate #1 or #2 material totals, that's expected. Imagine my surprise the first time I sold a multi-5 gallon bucket load and instead of weighing the buckets the scale attendant placed then in the bed of my truck. I looked at him and asked, "Aren't you going to weigh the buckets?" He reply, "I know what the buckets weigh".
Another costly lesson! The 5 gallon buckets were from different manufactures, made from different thickness of plastic like material. Some weighed much more than others but when the scale attendant did the math and subtracted for the buckets they used the same, over stated weight for each and every bucket. Once again, in my pocket and I walked away with less than I expected.
Now, fast forward to February 2015, I had been retired for several years and decided that I needed to generate some extra cash. To accomplish this I decided that I would start buying and sell large lots of old, used computers. Some of the computers were in working order and could be resold as a stand alone working units. Some didn't work or had parts missing and many of their internal components could be salvaged and resold as "used computer parts". What I was not able to resell as parts or a complete system I will break down and recycle the various metals, wires, PCBs, fans, batteries, PCI cards, capacitors, and so on to sell as e-scrap. Of course back then I had no idea what and where I could sell the e-scrap but now know that that the market for e-scrap is vast and there are many places it can be sold for a decent profit.
I don't know if you're like me and insist on knowing what the going, daily scrap prices are for the items you're selling before you load up and head out. Even though there a lot of yards to choose from, only a very small handful actually list their scrap prices online for all to see. The over all large majority state*"Call for current prices".*Well, that's fair, but what sours the deal is that most of the yards refuse to answer their phones when you call and the recorded message states, "If you are calling for current scrap prices please leave a list of the items you want priced along with your phone number and we will get back too you as soon as possible".
What the heck is that? Do the scrap yard owners really believe that there is no value to my time, only theirs, and really expect me to patently set by my phone and wait for hours for them to actually take the time to return the call with a list of prices? Tell me it ain't so!
Unfortunately, it is so!
I have things to do, places to go, money to make and neither have the time or patience to wait for the yard to free up a few minutes from their busy schedule to give me the current price for the items I'm selling. Hey, you scrap yard owners out there in the real world, MY TIME IS ALSO VALUABLE, and as far as I'm concerned, much more valuable than yours and I don't have time to wait on you!
Tell me this, what's the big secret anyway? Why not go ahead and list the current, daily prices on your web site and make adjustments daily if necessary for all to see? Seems like that would consume a lot less of your "precious" time then replying to 20 to 60 phone calls daily from people wanting updated prices. If you want to be in total control and make your perspective customers jump through hoops first thing then you will not get any of my business (I never was very good at "tricks" anyway!). If this is about maximizing your time and pleasing your customers, listing prices online makes a whole lot more sense than the "get back to you when we have the time" approach your'e now using. But then again, this isn't about maximizing your time or for your convenience or even for customer satisfaction in any way, shape, form or fashion: This is about control, being in control and always allowing yourself an "out" where, if the situation is right, you can manipulate the fact's so you make the most profit possible.
Sorry about that, got a little side tracked there. Anyway I normally choose a yard to use that provides prices on their web site. If I'm comfortable with their price, I'll sell to them. So, in April, 2015, I had enough total weights to justify a trip the yard. I decided to start small since it was a new yard (to me anyway) and I wanted to "feel them out" before I sold them any large loads. I headed to the scrap yard with 600 lbs of scrap steel (total value $30.00), a few pounds of "clean & bright", some #1 & #2 copper and a little 6061 aluminum. All total I walked away with $70.00 for the day. Their weights matched my weights, they were friendly and I felt comfortable with the experience. They didn't even weigh or subtract the weight of the boxes I used from the totals. Now this was something that took me by surprise and made me wonder If I had finally found a scrap yard that wasn't going to nit-pick me to death and would pay a fair price for a fair load.
Over the next three weeks I returned to the same yard three more times. Each time I increased my load weights and was very pleased when their weights matched mine, they didn't nit-pick over the containers (boxes) and I walked away thinking I was finally dealing with a scrap yard that was fair, honest and one I could trust. Two weeks later I returned to the same yard for my fifth visit. My load weights were much more than my previous trips and I was expecting a fair, good payload. Unloaded the scrap steel and their weights were right on with mine. That, unfortunately, was when things started to head south!
At this yard, for anything other than scrap steel, you are required to go to a loading dock. You approach from the outside and the attendant working the scales is on the loading dock inside. The scale screen is not positioned so you can see the various item weights as each is presented. Since their weights had been matching mine I didn't have a problem with that. Also, they had a computer terminal against the wall, out of your sight, that they were working on as each different scrap metal item was weighed. One at a time I would put a container with the scrap metal up on their scale and always made it a point to tell the operator what the scrap item was. My reason for this was simple, if they didn't agree with my call they could tell me right then and there that they did not agree and I could pull my material for sale at a different yard.
First up was my "clean & bright", next I put the container with the #2 copper wire on the scale and told them what it was. Then, the #1 copper pipe, then the 6061 aluminum, then the cast aluminum, then the scrap aluminum parts and pieces, and finally the extruded aluminum. Every time I placed a different container on their scales I immediately told the scale attendant what the material was in that container. After all the materials had been weighed, totaled and priced out the attendant printed and handed me my ticket. I turned to walk off, took two steps and stopped. Not only was the total payout considerably less than what I was expecting, a quick scan down the list showed me that there were items missing. No "clean & bright" was listed, this was the very first item I put on their scale. Also, the weight for the #2 copper wire was about half the weight I had presented for sale. The 6061 aluminum was not on the list and the other times that were on the list had weights that were anything other than the actual weights I presented.
I immediately said., "Hold on, there are items missing from this list and the weights are not even close to being right. I weigh EVERYTHING before I come here and know what I'm selling. Here is my list of items I presented and their appropriate weights. This isn't right and has to be corrected". Well, my refusal to move from the scale area and insistence on knowing why there was no "clean & bright" on their list, why some of the items I rendered were missing from their list and the remaining item weights were not even close to correct gained the attention of the #2 person in charge. I explained to him that I weight everything before I leave my shop, I know what I have and how much I can expect to be paid and, there were items missing from their ticket and the remaining item weights were wrong. The owner heard the ruckus and came over asking what's wrong. The #2 person in charge looked at the owner and said, "He weighs everything before he comes here". Those seven simple words and the looks they passed back and forth said more than any amount of words could ever say. To me, they were an outright admission of guilt.
They asked me to come inside, behind the locked, fenced, closed doors where I went over each item I brought that day and the weight of each of those items. The #2 person took my list of materials and weights and corrected their ticket to match my totals, no questions asked, and then promptly paid me for the adjusted weights and totals. As I was leaving I told the owner that the next time I came in I would bring my scale and we could test it next to theirs to make sure there was no problem.
On the drive home I kept wondering why I had experienced those problems, why there was such a difference in what I sold them and what they tried to stick me with. If their scales are correct and automatically uploads the weights to their computer for each item while they choose the category for the scrap, the only possible answer is either human error or manipulation of the items and weights by the scale attendant before printing out the ticket.
Three weeks passed and in May, 2015 I decided to return to that scrap yard and see if the results were better or different than my last visit. Unfortunately, I was given a lesson in "shaving off a few pounds" and I'm not talking about from your waist line! This time the #2 person was there with the scale attendant during the process. One by one, I presented my items, proclaimed what they were and waited for the attendant to total and print my ticket. I got into my vehicle, moved it from the dock, but before going inside I scanned each item on the list and compared it against my list. There were discrepancies, not with every item. Some of their weights were right there with mine. Other items there were ridiculous variations in my weight and their weight but none of the items were missing from their ticket. I grabbed my scale and headed inside. Once at the window I handed my ticket to the owner and told him that, if possible, I would like to compare my scale to theirs. I explained that the last two visits there were big differences and if my scales were screwed up I would like to find out. I told him I didn't want to keep *****ing at them if the problem was with my scales. The #2 person knew that I came with scale in hand that day and, once again, allowed me to come behind the locked, fenced, closed doors.
One quick point: the scales I use to weigh my items are digital Freon scales (cost me over $500.00+ in 2002) and they are accurate to the 10th of an ounce. When I opened my case the owner immediately said, "That scale is going to be more accurate than ours, it's very sensitive and van measure very small weights". I turned on the scale, zeroed it out and showed the owner that I selected the lbs & ounce setting to weigh my items. I also told him that I never counted ounces, and always dropped them from the totals. Ever if the ounces were close to being another pound, I always dropped the ounces. I could see the looks that the owner and #2 person were passing back and forth, that's when the #2 person decided to take charge of the situation.
He escorted me through the warehouse, to the dock scale where my items were initially weighed. First he placed a seven pound item on their scale, showed me the total as he continuously proclaimed that their scales were correct and checked every month. Next he placed it on my scale and, bingo, seven pounds on the button. I suggested that we try something heavier and that perhaps my scale were screwing up at higher weights. He grabbed a battery telling me it weighed 36 pounds, placed it on their scale and 36 pounds came up. Next he put the battery on my scale and, bingo, 36 pounds! I didn't tell him this, but one of the items I sold that day had weighed exactly 36 pounds, but when they listed it on their ticket it's weight had shrunk to 33 pounds. It was at this moment that it hit me between the eyes and I saw it, their scale WAS NOT connected to or tied into their computer or system in any way, it was free standing. After the item was weighed the scale attendant decided what category the material belonged in and would physically type in the weight for that material on the form they were using on their computer, AND HE DECIDED WHAT WEIGHT HE WOULD TYPE IN!
The #2 person was watching me and realized that I had just figured out what was going on; that their scale was right on, along with mine. There never was a problem with their scale, the problem (perhaps it was not a problem but one of design) was that their scale was not tied into their system and the scale attendant was given a free hand to manipulate the items and weights any way they so chose. I now understood what the game was and he knew that I had figured it out. He looked at me and told me that, next time I came, if I came in again, tell the operator to turn the screen for the scale so I could see the weights for each item as they were totaled and that, If I was not happy with the weights, I could retrieve my material and go somewhere else. I thanked him for taking the time to check my scale against his and told him that I thought that was an excellent idea.
On my drive home I knew that the scrap industry was still the same old "get you every way we can" monster it had always been and I needed to start looking for a different yard to sell to.
