✅ SOLVED "Horstmann Bros & Co." button help.

[drachetanzer]

Hi all! This is my first post, so please go easy on me, haha. I got into metal detecting about 2 months ago and have quickly fallen in love with it. I got the guts today to ask for my first permission to detect on private land. This is one of the items I found. I'm wondering if it's a military button, and if so, what type (who would have worn it, etc.), and also how old it might be. I did a search and saw that somebody had a similar button, but they didn't post many pictures of it and I couldn't tell if it was the same or not.

It's not in very good shape, but hopefully the pictures are clear enough to get some information from them. Also, I'm sorry, it looks like when I loaded them they are turned sideways and I'm not sure how to rotate them.



I used distilled water and a toothbrush to try to clean it. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to clean it better? I wasn't sure if I should try using a brass brush, as I don't want to scratch it.

 

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[Spats]

Welcome drachetanzer. Hortsmann Bros. was in business from the 1850s until 1893. Your button appears to be a U.S. General Staff button. This type button was used from 1832 through 1902. There are several variations of this button but at least two were manufactured by Hortsmann Bros. There are experts here that may be able to give you more definite information on when your button was made, but this is a start.

 

[duggap]

The key to dating your button will rest with the backmark. I can't make out an "a" on the end of "Phil". If that is the case than I think your button is post civil war.

 

[nhbenz]

When enlarged I can see the small underlined A after Phil, and the button seems to have a high relief (domed). With these details I'd say it fits the description a GS-226 on page 103 of Warren Tice's book, Uniform Buttons of the United States 1776-1865. These are in the 1850's -60's range, but with this backmark 1859 would be the earliest, also according to Tice's book, on page 40.
Edit: After reading below I think maybe I've read something wrong? If someone with Tice's book can tell me where I went wrong I'd appreciate it.

 

[drachetanzer]

Thanks for the replies! After more searching online I stumbled across this page: Button backmarks, W H Horstmann and Sons.

After comparing to the buttons on that page, it looks to be an exact match with "Horstmann.620", which references Tice's book "Dating Buttons", page 130. Again, I'm sorry for the poor quality of the photos of the button, but comparing in person with the pictures and description for "Horstmann.620" it looks exactly the same (both sides). So, if I'm correct, it's a Federal Officer button dating between 1875 and 1893 (also assuming the information on that site is correct).

Thanks for your help all! I'll mark this one as "solved" as soon as I read up on how to do that.

 

[duggap]

When enlarged I can see the small underlined A after Phil, and the button seems to have a high relief (domed). With these details I'd say it fits the description a GS-226 on page 103 of Warren Tice's book, Uniform Buttons of the United States 1776-1865. These are in the 1850's -60's range, but with this backmark 1859 would be the earliest, also according to Tice's book, on page 40.
Edit: After reading below I think maybe I've read something wrong? If someone with Tice's book can tell me where I went wrong I'd appreciate it.

I think you are correct. The key is if there is in fact an "a" at the end of Phil. I think you are correct that there is an "a" there. The web site he quotes shows an officers button with that exact backmark, but he calls it 1850s. The problem with Tice's book is he doesn't address the abbreviations of the name Philadelphia. Therefore he shows a much wider range of dates. In the backmark book he shows a date of 1860 and 1880 but the buttons he references are not the button in question. And for the benefit of our new member, it is a lot better to be a pre civil war date than a post civil war date. In Albert's book, he shows two of the above buttons, but it is Phil, without the "a". The Horstman backmark can be a very difficult one to date sometimes.

 

[drachetanzer]

I should clarify - there is definitely a small and capitalized underlined "A" after the "Phil" (it's much easier to see in person than in the photo). I wish it were a pre-civil war dated button, but I would have been very surprised if that were the case since I found it in Utah (where I am...I need to update/fill my user profile).

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

The McGuinn-&-Bazelon book on backmark-dating confirms 1870-1893 for that backmark.

Drachetanzer, welcome to T-Net's "What Is It?" forum, the best place on the internet to get unknown objects CORRECTLY identified, and time-dated.

"Staff type" (3-piece) buttons can have what button collectors describe as a narrow rim, a wide rim, or an "extra-wide" rim. The photo of your 3-piece button from 1870-1893 shows it has the "extra-wide" rim.
Narrow rim is almost always pre-1866.
Wide rim is almost always post-1865.
Extra-wide rim is always post-1865, with only two exceptions that I know of in American military buttons. (One is a pre-civil-war Michigan State Seal staff officer button.)

But of course, the backmark's time-range is more important than rim size, because some post-1865 buttons have a narrow rim.

The photo below shows the three sizes of rim. The added arrow on the photo points to the pre-1866 button.

Button-diggers and collectors, please be aware that a wide or extra-wide rim on a 3-piece button is almost always a warning that the button was manufactured after the end of the civil war.

 

[nhbenz]

Excellent clarification, thanks!

 

[drachetanzer]

Thanks for that great information TheCannonballGuy!