holed French? item

[scratcher]

As you can see, this item has two holes like it was made into a button. It also has a hole in the edge, though, which makes me wonder if it was used for something else. It was found near furtrade items and I assume it was Native drilled. The bigger question to me is what was it originally. I can't make out all the letters yet, but one word is ROI. It looks like a lion and a unicorn. I can do better pics with natural light tommorrow if needed. Thanks for any help.

 

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[Montana Jim]

It looks like a button that lost it's back, or some other item that was made into a make-shift button... or even cooler, a "whizzer" toy.

Interesting about the hole in the edge too...

 

[72cheyenne]

I'm guessing it is a lid that has been made into a whizzer. I would imagine the hole on the side gave it more "whiz".

 

[Montana Jim]

The lid (or whatever) is very similar or is a stylized Coat of Arms for this description:

"The TRUE Israel People have, on their "Coat-of-Arms", a Lion and a Unicorn which is shown as a white horse "rampant" with one horn. The amber Lion "rampant" on the left-side is the emblem of the two-tribed "House of Judah" and the Unicorn or white Wild-Ox "rampant" on the right-side is the emblem of the ten-tribed "House of Israel", collectively making the 12-tribed "Kingdom of Israel"."

... and is all over the google search images pages.

I think it's a generalized design.

 

[scratcher]

OK, I found this also on wiki

'The Lion and the Unicorn are symbols of the United Kingdom. They are properly speaking heraldic supporters, appearing in the full Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom. The lion stands for England and Wales[citation needed] and the unicorn for Scotland. The combination therefore dates back to the 1603 accession of James I of England who was already James VI of Scotland.'

Thanks for getting me started, Jim

I'm going to see if I can figure out why it appears to be in French. Thanks again

 

[Montana Jim]

I don't see anything "French" about it... I do see a victorian style...

 

[scratcher]

Jim, if you read my post I noted that I thought one of the words on the item was ROI, which I think if I remember correctly is French for King. After researching, I realize I must not be seeing it correctly. It must be DROIT. It is the British Royal Coat of Arms, I believe. Evidently it was first used when England and Sottland joined. I'm going to try and figure out when the current motto version was first used.

 

[scratcher]

From wiki:

The motto is French for "God and my right" (a fuller version of the motto is also quoted as "God and my right shall me defend").[4] Originally spelled Dieut et mon droict in early Modern French, the t in Dieut and c in droict were later dropped in accordance with present French orthography.[citation needed]

For the Royal coat of arms of the Kingdom of England to have a French rather than English motto was not unusual, given that Norman French was the primary language of the English Royal Court and ruling class following the rule of William the Conqueror of Normandy and later the Plantagenets. Another Old French phrase also appears in the full achievement of the Royal Arms. The motto of the Order of the Garter, Honi soit qui mal y pense ("shame upon him who thinks evil of it"), appears on a representation of a garter behind the shield. Modern French spelling has changed honi to honni, but the motto has not been updated.

learning alot here

Could this be a snuff box lid?

 

[[email protected]]

Scratcher,
It might be Latin. Try seeing if the phrase "Honi Soit Qui Maly Pense" fits into your item.
I have a similar lid that I will try to dig out. It doesn't have the two holes like yours, but I think I know that design. The lid I am thinking of is usually mangled when I find one but I think I may have a whole one in my collection.
I'll go look.
Nice finds!
Dave.

Sorry, I didn't notice that you already thought of that phrase.

 

[scratcher]

Yes Dave, that is an exact match in the parts that aren't holed. I would love to see your example. Do you have any guesses what these were lids to?(if they are lids, that is)

 

[[email protected]]

The example that I have like yours is mangled but here is a similar lid that may help in figuring out what it may have contained. I hope the picture is legible.
I have to run out the door but I will answer questions later.
Dave.
P.S. The company name is: R. Letchford & Co. London

 

[mick56]

Lid to a can of snuff or chewing tobacco.

 

[scratcher]

cachou box lid, I bet

 

[scratcher]

Dave, here is yours

 

[scratcher]

I think the hole in the edge was for dispensing the mints. Thanks MJ and Dave. I appreciate you leading me in the right direction. I'm going to have to change my assumption about Native drilled. They were for the most part out of my area by 1850. I would guess this may be a little later....

Solved in my opinion...

 

[scratcher]

Well now I'm not so sure I should have marked this solved. I e-mailed pics to Ben Swanson who is the only 'expert' on cachou boxes I could find and he didn't think it was. He said he didn't know what else it could be, though. I know this probably isn't anything special but would like as much info as possible. Thanks for any input.

 

[ivan salis]

cachou * is a type of french licorice flavored candy / breath mint invented in france in 1880 -- its a container lid - the side hole could be lined up with a hole in the container for shaking one out of the container --sort of a 1880's licorice flavored -- tic tac type mint