History of the 1715 Treasure, question?

[ourhistory153]

Hello, been awhile since I posted here.

My new book is out I am happy to say.

I am planning a history seminar for remembrance of the wreck of the 1715 fleet. I have new information
but still looking for more.

So here is the question I'd like to find answers for. How far north of Wabasso Beach has 1715 treasure been
found?

Also if you come to our seminar please bear in mind that I am a history buff that dabbles in treasure hunting
rather than a treasure hunter that dabbles in history. I just want my attendees to have realistic expectations.

 

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[billinstuart]

Seminar??

 

[Overeasy]

Take a look at the Bonsteel park thread. Bonsteel park is about three miles northof the inlet.

 

[ourhistory153]

Thanks I will check it out the Bonsteel Park thread.

I will post my flyer for the 1715 Treasure Seminar as a jpeg image, hopefully it
should link to this message.

We like to get many experts involved in these history seminars as the information that comes
out them is more meaningful.

 

[FloridaBill]

Do you get one of these for attending

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Ray, at your last lecture up in Cape Canaveral a year or so back, we had the suprising opportunity to have a couple of the surviving members of the Real Eight Corp show up. Any chance that we may be so lucky again?


P.S. I enjoyed your last lecture, and look forward to this one as well.


Tom

 

[ourhistory153]

Yes, I think one or two of the Real Eight may attend.

I had another Treasure seminar at Satellite Beach Library where they and some descendants of some of the other
deceased members attended. In fact some had gold artifacts to show.

Del Long gave me some pics of the old days which I will incorporate in our presentation.

Like I said in a previous email, I think it would be a good thing to do a 1715 treasure seminar this
time every year.

BTW: I am looking for a good used MD. Any tips where I could find one?

 

[mad4wrecks]

regarding your request for a used MD.....there is a very good one here:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,168950.0.html

 

[Overeasy]

Looking forward to your presentation. I hope Del Long attends, I don't know his status now. I once shared a hospital room with him for a couple of days. I didn't know anything about the 1715 fleet then, but I sure could ask some questions now.

 

[ourhistory153]

Looking forward to your presentation. I hope Del Long attends, I don't know his status now. I once shared a hospital room with him for a couple of days. I didn't know anything about the 1715 fleet then, but I sure could ask some questions now.

What questions would you ask? Finding intelligent questions on this topic would aid me with my new stories.

Here's a question I have.

I'm thinking of renaming this event to the First Annual "Treasure of the 1715 fleet" seminar.

Maybe do this seminar every year about this time to commemorate the loss of this Spanish
Plate fleet. Do you think that calling it "First Annual would be regarded as "Tacky" in the treasure hunting
community? In the historical community it may go over better.

History Channel did a a good show on ships that included Spanish Galleons last night.

-RKO

 

[Overeasy]

Here is a question or two, some may be off your target but they are all intended to open up the subjects. I'll leave the naming of your seminar to others.

Did all the ships that have been found break up on the beach or did the break up on reefs? I ask this because there is a lot more sand than reefs along this area of coast.

Where is the speculated area that the other unfound ships may lie. It seems many areas may have been eliminated due the the previous searching.

What role did the Ays Indians play.Were they friendly. From reading various stories, there role seems confused. Did they carry away any coins to their camps? It has been reported that they moved around a lot, but they had very large shell mounds in Sebastian and Melbourne Beach that indicated they stayed in one place for a while. How did thy get across the Indian river, raft or canoe?

Were the Ays used in the actual recovery of the coins in the water offshore. How deep did they dive?

How much time past until the pirates show up to loot the survivors camp. How long were the survivors at the camp. How many camps were there.

Did any of the survivors make it to St. Augustine with their personal wealth. I think we know some started out but what happended?

I realize that a lot of this is just speculative but they are points to ponder. I know others will have many more. LP

 

[ourhistory153]

I learned that the Ays (Ais) Indians were very good at salvaging treasure. They were experts at diving
and hauling it up for the Spanish. Here is a picture of a painting from the McLarty Museum.

I've studied the native cultures somewhat for my writings and learned that they like many other
cultures believed in the immortality of the soul so they would get buried with their favorite items. Similar
to the pharaohs they would get buried with their most prized items so it is likely that if they ( the Ays) were salavaging then they
might keep some shiny gold items for themselves and get buried with them. Of course it is important to note that there
are stiff federal and state laws for knowlingly disturbing native burial sites and that it is considered 'looting.' But having
said that I am collecting pictures and drawings of items found in these sites. What is done is done, so we might as well
capture the history and record it. eh?

I am posting some messages in the Native American forum here on some items that have been found.

Our speaker Tom Funk may be able to add more to this on Aug 2nd.

 

[ourhistory153]

I have some questions too.

I was able to get a copy of National Geographic article dated Jan 1965 with the article by
Kip Wagner. Great article on how they did things.
1) I thought it interesting that Kip said there were lots of sharks in the vicinity of the 1715 wrecks. He postulated that maybe it was
a 'tribal memory' of a feeding frenzy the sharks had when the 1715 fleet wrecked. Does any current divers notice that waters in this area are shark invested?

2) This article also talks about the day that Rex Stocker found the infamous Captain's Chain. When I wrote the story about the Museum of Sunken Treasure in Cape Canaveral I learned that this chain was not taken in the great heist but rather a replica of it was stolen. I learned from oral history that the chain was auctioned and bought by Aristotle Onassis and given as a gift to Jackie O. But that was a long time ago. Somebody else told me that
the chain was auctioned again in the past few years. Does anybody know when and how much it was auctioned off as? Interesting and
beautiful chain that was made of oriental gold rather than S or Central American. Which brings up another question. Can gold, silver
and copper be analyzed where it came from? Is there a chemical test to determine whether something has Old or New World origins?
And if so, how localized can it be determined? Is Columbian gold purer than say Mexican?

I have some more questions that I will post as I would like to verify info. before the seminar.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Ray: just some quick thoughts......

In 20 years of salvage diving, I have had but a few encounters with sharks. We know that they are out there, but the visibility is so bad we rarely see them! Mostly nurse sharks in my experience. Actually, I think the shark population has probably declined quite a bit since the late 50's/early 60's.

There are a few archival accounts of the Ais Indians salvaging shipwrecks along the Treasure Coast in the 1500 and 1600's. However, by 1715, the Ais population had been greatly reduced and I think they disappeared altogether within a few years of that date and/or assimilated into other tribes. In all of the many pages of archival documents I have read pertaining to the 1715 fleet disaster, there is almost no mention of the Ais Indians. Some indians were brought down from St Augustine to help the 1715 survivors hunt for food. And Caribbean indians were brought up from Havana, along with Spanish divers, to salvage the wrecks. But I found no mention of the Spanish using the Ais to salvage the wrecks. I have a lecture on casette tape by Dr Gene Lyons, given several years ago at the McLarty museum, that goes into greater detail. If I can find it, I will make you a copy.

Tom

 

[Overeasy]

This may be a bit stupid, but I've never seen a Indian burial site indicated on any map or marker here in south Brevard Co. How are they marked??

 

[ourhistory153]

Good point about the Ais Indians disappearing in the 1700's. RE: That painting at McLarty Museum, what nation of Indians
were diving for gold? You mentioned imported from the Caribbean, would that be Arawark?

Yes I'd like to get a copy of that tape of Eugene Lyon's lecture.

 

[ourhistory153]

I did some more research on this about Ais Indians doing salvage work.

A previous shipwreck in 1696 had a writer by the name of Jonathan Dickinson who wrote about his encounter with the Ais indians.
(one of the few and most accurate narratives we have on the Ais) Book entitled "God's Protecting Providence."

Among the many things he wrote about his experiences he stated that they were taken to Jece (the chief town of the Ais), near present-day Vero Beach, were they were welcomed and given some pieces of clothing.

The twist was they had to fool the Ais indians that they were Spanish. The Spanish were the successful European power because they
were able to get many of the native cultures on their side with their war against the Europeans namely the French.

So my theory is that whereas the Ais may have disappeared in the 1700's, I don't think it was the early 1700's as Dickinson wrote
about them and their town in 1696, a span of less that 20 years for the 1715 wreck.

Of course this doesn't prove they were involved in salvaging, maybe as you say the Indians used for salvaging were imported. But
certainetly they may have been around at the time and if they wee around and the prominent tribe they would have had say so if not
a stake in the treasure recovery.

 

[ourhistory153]

This may be a bit stupid, but I've never seen a Indian burial site indicated on any map or marker here in south Brevard Co. How are they marked??

And you never will. Indian burial mounds are considered sacred and protected by both federal and state laws (and maybe protected
in other more mysterious ways). Archaeologists in the past have been able to dig around and do research, their published notes are
quite fascinating.

 

[mad4wrecks]

My bad...it appears the Ais disappeared in the later half of the 18th century. Enjoy:

Homer Cato of Micco is an amateur ar-
chaeologist who has documented evi-
dence of what may have been Sebastian's
earliest neighborhood.
The "Cato Site" is located just south of
Sebastian Inlet and north of McLarty
Museum.
What he found there was the skeletal
remains of three Indians who had lived
in the area hundreds of years before the
time of Christ.
A pounder made of the central co-
lumella of a conch shell and located near
the remains was carbon dated to 845
B.C. The remains, as Cato noted later in
an interview I did with him, were sev-
eral feet below the level at which the co-
lumella had been found and may have
been thousands of years older.
However, we can state with some certainty that
there were Indians living there almost 3,000
years ago.
Midden material and other artifacts located at
the site indicate it was the location of a village.
By comparing the remains with others he had
found in and around the Sebastian area, Cato was
able to confirm that they were related to the Ais
Indians, the dominant tribe on this part of the
Florida east coast when the Spanish arrived.
He also suspects there was a natural inlet be-
tween the Indian River and the Atlantic Ocean in
the area at that time, which might account for the
Indians' decision to locate a village there.
The Ais Indians were related to the Caribbean
tribes. Hunter-gatherers, they lived on the abun-
dance of marine life and wild fruits and berries
indigenous to the area.
They dominated the Florida coast from Fort Pierce
to Cape Canaveral, and the Indian River was their
principal source of food and transportation.
With a marine-based economy, the Ais relied on
the lagoon, the river and the ocean for food. Many
of their tools, implements and decorations were
made of shell.
Later, after Europeans had discovered the new
world, they came to rely on the sea for other
ings as well.
With the advent of the Spanish treasure
fleets, which left Cuba and sailed parallel
to the Florida coast to a point east of St.
Augustine before striking across the At-
lantic Ocean for Spain, the Ais became
treasure salvors as well.
Numerous shipwrecks along the
coast attracted the interest of the
Ais. Those shipwrecks ultimately
brought them into contact with the
Spanish, a contact that would prove
fatal for the Indians and their cul-
ture.
For as the Indians preyed upon
the Spanish vessels wrecked by
storms along the coast, the Span-
ish began to prey upon them.
In 1565 Admiral Pedro Menendez
of Spain was given a charter to
develop the east coast of Florida.
One of his first tasks was to clear
out the French colony that had been
established by Jean Ribault at Fort
Caroline.
With ruthless efficiency, Menen-
dez slaughtered the French. After
capturing them, he had them led
out in groups often and had their
throats cut.
After learning the location of a group who had
escaped, Menendez came down the coast from St.
Augustine to Cape Canaveral where the French-
men had made a rough fort.
He captured the French and continued on down
the coast with his expedition.
In his book about Menendez and the Spanish
Conquest of Florida in 1565-68, _The Enterprise of
Florida_, historian Eugene Lyon describes the jour-
ney.
"As his land forces, swollen by the number of the
French prisoners, slogged along the long expanse of
beach which stretches like a crescent moon south-
ward from Cape Canaveral, the adelantado of Flor-
ida entered a new and distinctive part of his king-
doms. As the marching men moved down the nar-
rowing island they soon caught glimpses of the
broad open waters of the Indian River. Menendez
could quickly see that the waterway would afford
protected navigation by small craft which would
enable more rapid and secure communication along
the central east coast."
Menendez made his way down the coast to a place
where the "...land between river and ocean was a
mere sandspit." There he found a thick cluster of
Indian villages and the dwelling place of the chief
of the Ais.
The location of this site is believed to have been
near the St. Sebastian River area.
According to Lyon, "The basic theory of the loca-
tion of the Ais culture center was developed by
Homer N. Cato of Micco, Florida, who has done
much fruitful field work in a number of Ais sites in
the vicinity of the St. Sebastian River and the ocean
inlet opposite it."
As he had marched his troops down the beach from
Cape Canaveral, Menendez had been followed by
three boats at sea. Having established contact with
the Ais chieftain, the adelantado had his men make
camp at a location not far from the Ais village.
Leaving 200 of his soldiers and 50 of the French
prisoners at that location, he boarded his boats and
set sail for Havana in search of reinforcements and
more supplies for his venture in Florida.
According to Cato, the evidence indicates the loca-
tion of the seat of Ais culture at that time was near
the present location of Sebastian and Roseland.
The relationship between
the Spanish and the Ais
Indians alternated be-
tween efforts to negotiate
and hostility, which led at
times to massacres of the
Indians by the Spanish.
For their part, the Span-
ish colonists were con-
cerned about the safety of
their missionaries and of
shipwreck victims along
the coast. The Indians' pre-
dilection for harvesting treasure from the many
shipwrecks also was a matter of concern.
The Indians, on the other hand, were accustomed
to harvesting the bounty of the sea, and doubtless
regarded the ornaments and jewelry they salvaged
as one more example of that bounty.
They had little reason to regard the powerful,
pale-skinned interlopers with anything but suspi-
cion.
Here in Florida, as in other parts of' the new world,
the relationship between the Indians and the
Europeans who came to live on lands they had
occupied for generations was strained and eventu-
ally led to the extermination of the Indian
cultures.
At the time Menendez visited the chief of the
Ais, the Indians still had a viable culture. But
clearly it was one whose time was running
out.
In 1605 a Spanish soldier named Aivero
Mexia was sent to improve relations with the
Ais.
Mexia kept a journal of his trip down the
Indian River, and from the notes in that
journal, one of the first maps of the Indian
River lagoon was made. The map includes
what may be the earliest record of the St.
Sebastian River, as it was called by the Span-
ish.
At any rate, the Ais were still in the area
during the early 1700s when one of the most
famous of all shipwrecks occurred.

The Sinking of a Treasure Fleet

More than any other event, it was the sink-
ing of the 1715 Spanish Plate Fleet off the
coast of Florida that gave the Treasure Coast
its name.
After leaving Havana in late July, a fleet of
12 ships were driven by a hurricane into the
Florida coast between St. Lucie Inlet and the pres-
ent location of Sebastian Inlet.
Eleven of the ships sank. The twelfth, a French
vessel that had been forced to sail with the Spanish
when they left Havana, managed to escape the
reefs and to survive the encounter with the storm.
It was July 31, 1715. Thousands perished in the
catastrophe.
Almost immediately, the Spanish launched a sal-
vage operation. The men, women and children who
had survived were herded up the coast to a location
just south of the modern-day Sebastian Inlet, the
northernmost point at which the ships were known
to have gone down.
The survivors were placed in the location of an Ais
Indian village, were they would wait until trans-
portation could be arranged to return them to
Havana.
McLarty Museum, a part of the Sebastian Inlet
State Recreation Area, is located on the site of the
survivors camp.
Under the direction of Don Juan del Hoyo
Solorzano, the sergeant major of Havana, the sal-
vage operation recovered much of the treasure that
had been lost when the Plate Fleet went down.
In 1716, Captain Henry Jennings raided the sal-
vors' camp and made off with 21 tons of silver
pieces-of-eight, about 600,000 coins. Jenning's raid
touched off a wave of piracy in the Caribbean.
However, not all of the treasure was recovered by
the Spanish, nor was all they recovered captured by
pirates.
By the last half of the
1700s, the Ais were gone
completely. Possibly some
of the scattered remnants
merged with the outcasts
from other tribes who
began coming to Florida
during that time.
Little is known of the ul-
timate fate of the Ais.
They had been hunted
and enslaved or killed by
the Spanish. They also
had succumbed, like most
native American tribes to
many of the white man's
illnesses.
But they left their mark on the countryside in the
form of giant shell middens that dotted the shores
of the St. Sebastian River and the Indian River
lagoon where their villages had been located.
The middens were a pre-Columbian landfill, giant
refuse heaps containing shell, pottery shards, bro-
ken tools and all the other castoff material of a vital
culture.
In some cases the middens became the site of
villages. In others, they were burial grounds.
One of the middens became a landmark for some
time in the Sebastian area before it was finally
destroyed early in this century.
Christened Barker's Bluff, after an Indian trader
who was supposedly killed there in the mid-1800s,
the midden was more than 1,000 feet long, about
400 feet wide and as high as the tallest palm tree in
the area.

 

[ourhistory153]

Good stuff. I have some more stuff I will throw out soon.

But this first.

I just got off the phone with a reporter. A story is planned for Wednesday preceding this event.

Will you or anybody else here be able to bring in an artifact? If so I can tell her that definetly
somebody will have some actual 1715 artifacts for our 'show and tell' session. Nothing like the
feel of actual gold.

Here is a picture of the founder of Blue Water Ventures holding a chain and gold pick of some sort. Anything anybody want to add about these artifacts?