✅ SOLVED Help with USN model 1870 bayonet

[TreaShore]

I'm not really sure if this post fits here or if I should move it somewhere else? Like to the general forum? I figured as this is more of ID'ing (authenticating) post then it would make more sense here.

Last month I ran across a USN model 1870 bayonet tucked away in the corner of a antique store. I never saw one in person before. Being that I had no experience with these bayonets, I didn't purchase it as I wanted to learn about how to authenticate it first. Can anyone help with their opinion of it and any suggestions of what to look for?

Online sourced example below (scabbard missing frog stud):

My research has yielded the following information. The USN m1870 bayonets were designed to be used with Remington rolling block rifles. The government placed an order for the rifles, but there were issues with the first lot of being rejected and a second batch having to be made. It seems approximately 10,000 bayonets were produced. The bayonet can be found in two versions. Type 1 was short lived and are much rarer. It used a curved Yataghan-style blade that was offset with the edge lower than the finger grip area of the handle. The Type 2 has a straight, double edged blade that was centered on the handle.

What I saw (pictured) was a type 2. The markings of " U.S.N G.G.S. 1870" on the blade seem correct in font and placement. The reverse also had the typical markings for AMES. I was in a rush and missed out on pictures of the scabbard, but it looked period and matched the leather and brass riveted version typical of the Type 2. The one interesting thing is that it had a bayonet frog with it. I could not find an image of what a USN m1870 frog looks like. Was there a specific frog used for this bayonet or was another model's frog repurposed for the 1870?

The most in-depth discussion I found was for a Type 1 bayonet. I figured these were a few things to look for on the Type 2:

1. Stippled background for the Navy Bureau of Ordinance insignia on pommel.
2. Handle markings and accuracy. I've seen some with a "S" on the cross guard, "I.A." or "J.G.F" inspector initials on the pommel and "G.G.S." above the guide bar slot. I've seen the "S" and inspector initials missing on examples posted online. I guess that they wore off on those examples?
3. Measure dimensions.
4. Check quality of the casting of handle and patinas on overall bayonet + scabbard.
5. Check stitching on scabbard. I couldn't find any information on scabbard markings.

I really want to add one of these to my collection after seeing it up close. So far it seems real to me. Any input is appreciated. Thanks.

 

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[Retired Sarge]

These are some crude reproductions out there. The markings I'll have to double check, but they look good to me. If the price is good I'd get it. Could always post on the US Militaria forum if you want another set of eyes on it.

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If you get it, resist temptation to scrub it, and polish it and make it look new. If it was me, I'd take some oil (I use transmission fluid), some 4 ought brass wool (Not steel wool, but same thing but made of brass), and gently clean the blade to get rid of the crud on it. Afterwards keep a thin coating of oil on it to keep it from rusting.

Oh and eventually you'll want to find a rifle to attach the pointy stick to.

I've got a Remington No 1 Rolling Block made for Egypt. It has the Yataghan/Chassepot style bayonet.

Egyptian Rolling Block

Finally got around to taking some pictures of the old girl...... Typical Egyptian M1868 No 1 Remington Rolling Block, chambered in .43 Egyptian aka 11.43x50R. Finished in the white (This is correct some where left in the white and some were blued) well worn from years of service, marked...

www.treasurenet.com

 

[TreaShore]

These are some crude reproductions out there. The markings I'll have to double check, but they look good to me. If the price is good I'd get it. Could always post on the US Militaria forum if you want another set of eyes on it.

I've got a Remington No 1 Rolling Block made for Egypt. It has the Yataghan/Chassepot style bayonet.

Thank you for the reply and info. I will visit USMilitaria and see if I can dig up anything in the archives first. My previous searching showed some reproductions, but they seemed to target mostly the Type 1. I guess the rarity makes it a more attractive to reproduce.

I will post some more pictures if I purchase it. The store is far away and I only pass it on occasion. It has been about 2 months and I'm not even sure it is still there. Hopefully I find it still hiding in the corner.

Nice Rolling Block by the way. Did you ever get to shoot it?

 

[Retired Sarge]

Thank you for the reply and info. I will visit USMilitaria and see if I can dig up anything in the archives first. My previous searching showed some reproductions, but they seemed to target mostly the Type 1. I guess the rarity makes it a more attractive to reproduce.

I will post some more pictures if I purchase it. The store is far away and I only pass it on occasion. It has been about 2 months and I'm not even sure it is still there. Hopefully I find it still hiding in the corner.

Nice Rolling Block by the way. Did you ever get to shoot it?

I've gone back and forth between pictures and nothing jumps out at me that screams reproduction. Depending on price, I'd try and talk them down a bit because of the crud and corrosion on the blade. It's not in mint or pristine condition. Check prices and see where this one falls. If it's lower than you find online, I'd get it and clean it up.

As for shooting my M1868 Rolling Block, sadly not yet, it's on the list of things to do, once this blasted Florida heat dies off.

I believe it's the only one in my collection of firearms I haven't shot thus far. All the rest have had a least one range trip and have belched fire.

 

[TreaShore]

Good news is that the store still had it! Interesting is that I discovered a small "S" stamp on the scabbard's finial matching the one on the cross guard. There was no references to scabbard markings when I was doing my research. I know the Danish m1867 Rolling Block bayonets had markings in this location too (if memory serves it is a crown stamp), so I figured there could be markings on the American version. The scabbard is pretty solid with a little wobble in the brass endmount. The bayonet frog is marked "Rock Island Arsenal 1904 T.C." I'm familiar with RIA and assume TC is the inspector initials, but I could not find this frog yet. Records say the Rolling Block was in service until 1918. Here are some additional pictures
.

The owner had it listed for $300, but let me have it for $200 for being a return customer and for "having good taste" in swords. I really appreciate the discount. I don't think I will find one cheaper, in better condition, and complete with frog for even less than that. Plus, I find it fun to do a little work on it myself. It gives me an activity to do on a rainy weekend as I listen to football. I'm going to take Sarge's advice and do a gentle cleaning of the blade with brass wool then work a little on helping the catch work smoother.

 

[Retired Sarge]

GGS on the blade may be the initials of civilian Navy inspector G.G. Saunders.

IA or LA on the pommel are inspector markings that I can't find.

T.C. can't find that one listed, but there is T.C.C. for Thomas C. Carroll, who worked for RIA at the same time. They could be one in the same or T.C. might be just an unknown RIA leather goods inspector.

S can't find anything on that.

All that said the frog is an enigma that is for sure, it looks European in style. Then again this style was used in the US, seen similar in honor guards, ceremonial units, military schools.

 

[TreaShore]

GGS on the blade may be the initials of civilian Navy inspector G.G. Saunders.

IA or LA on the pommel are inspector markings that I can't find.

T.C. can't find that one listed, but there is T.C.C. for Thomas C. Carroll, who worked for RIA at the same time. They could be one in the same or T.C. might be just an unknown RIA leather goods inspector.

S can't find anything on that.

All that said the frog is an enigma that is for sure, it looks European in style. Then again this style was used in the US, seen similar in honor guards, ceremonial units, military schools.

I also couldn't find anything on the pommel initials or S besides seeing them on other pieces. I'll post if I ever find the answers to those or the frog. Thanks for the info you taught me.

 

[Retired Sarge]

I also couldn't find anything on the pommel initials or S besides seeing them on other pieces. I'll post if I ever find the answers to those or the frog. Thanks for the info you taught me.

Glad I was able to help out a little bit.

My GUESSES are as follows.

1. US made foreign contract frog that someone recycled for use here.

2. US made frog made for another US used bayonet, and again recycled for use here. Such as school use or ceremonial use. Though I'm not finding one.

3. Since there were not a ton of these bayonets made, maybe the frogs were/are even more scare than the bayonets. Hence why we can't find any information.

4. Foreign or US made modern day fantasy frog that's been on there for years.

5. Unmarked, but an original, foreign made and used frog that was dressed up with US markings.

Whatever it is, it was made for a bayonet scabbard with a frog tab. Not many US blade bayonets, that I know of, have that feature. So I'm perplexed here, but maybe I'm just over thinking it and there is a simple answer that is evading me..........

Note:

Bannerman's was a major surplus arms/militaria dealer proving equipment for Military Academies and Schools, other quasi Military Organizations, and to foreign militaries. Lord only knows what all he ended up with. Interesting reading if you haven't heard of him.