help with a buckle ??

[Green1]

got this today at a spot that goes back to the mid 1600's.. it has one of the forked things broke off, (should be 3) can anyone date this and maybe an approximate worth ?? i don't sell, i'm just curious...


thanx a lot.. rick...

 

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[CRUSADER]

Cica 1800 shoe buckle - silver

Could be a little early than 1800 say 1780-90s

just checked the book - 1750-1790s

 

[Silver Searcher]

It looks Silver ... we call them in the UK dandy buckles usually found on shoes

 

[Green1]

holy smokes..... thanx guys !!!!!! crusader, how would i get an approximate worth, any ideas ??

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Nomination for Banner.

 

[birdman]

With out a doubt ,the nicest shoe buckle I have seen!

 

[Montana Jim]

Silver Smith Edward Lothian 1737 - 1750

Makers Mark was E (dot) L under Crown from The Edinburgh Assay Office

I do NOT think this is your maker as the marks are completely different... there was also a maker using E.L. out of Mexico and I have no idea about time frames for that dude... So far these are all I could find on the internet.

The mark may have been the owner's initials especially if part of a set.

Any chance it was produced here in the states colonial era with hasty initials by the maker?

 

[CRUSADER]

In my opininion its a owners initials as the workship in this piece would mean that they would have had a finer stamp or mark. Many early pieces were not assayered/marked although they should have been for tax purposes, purity purposes etc...

There are a great many buckle collectors around the world & this would would appeal to them. Not sure of the US market but I would guess someone might pay $80-$100. (UK collector might pay £35)

 

[Don in SJ]

In my opininion its a owners initials has the workship in marking this would have had a finer stamp & mark. Many early pieces were not assayered although they should have been for tax purposes, purity purposes etc...

There are a great many buckle collectors around the world & this would would appeal to them. Not sure of the US market but I would guess someone might pay $80-$100. (UK collector might pay £35)

It might just be American made , since it was found in New England area which had a few silversmiths of their own, hopefully someone will give a more definitive answer. It is a beautiful shoe buckle.............

Don

 

[CRUSADER]

In my opininion its a owners initials has the workship in marking this would have had a finer stamp & mark. Many early pieces were not assayered although they should have been for tax purposes, purity purposes etc...

There are a great many buckle collectors around the world & this would would appeal to them. Not sure of the US market but I would guess someone might pay $80-$100. (UK collector might pay £35)

It might just be American made , since it was found in New England area which had a few silversmiths of their own, hopefully someone will give a more definitive answer. It is a beautiful shoe buckle.............

Don

Never said where it was made, could easily be US made. I was commenting on the finest of the buckle & that it was likely that the workman would mark his piece better than that on show. I might be completely wrong on this, its a best guess.

 

[Montana Jim]

The mark may have been the owner's initials especially if part of a set.

When I wrote this above I shoulda said I agreed with plehbah about the "owners initials" possibility.

 

[romeo-1]

This is definitely a banner worthy find!

 

[BuckleBoy]

BANNER!!!

P.S.--in order to have a shot at the banner, you might want to take, or have a friend take, some real photos of the piece on a nice background (perhaps a blue shirt or cloth). The scanned photos work just fine for the "What is it" thread, but they like nice photos for the banner.


That said, BANNER!

It is truly a beautiful piece.


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

[Green1]

wow thanks all !! it's the first thing i looked at when i woke up.. i still can't belive my luck !
an intact late 1800's pocketwatch was my favorite find till yesterday......
i hear ya bb, sunday i'll get my wife to do better pics.. 8) 8) 8)

 

[CRUSADER]

It looks Silver ... we call them in the UK dandy buckles usually found on shoes

As my good friend points out its typical of a Dandy buckle & was more a piece of jewelery than a buckle. The men were trying to show off their taste & wealth as a fashion item. In order to impress the ladies.

I agree if it is US made it will be more collectable/valuable (who really cares when you get a whole one like that, not me). Whats interesting to me that if so, then they followed the same fashions at similar times but hundreds of miles away. This does even happen today, whats fashionable in the US is not fashionable here at the same time. Interesting discussion.

 

[Don in SJ]

Reply from a silversmith

I contacted a silversmith(metalsmith) who enjoys helping with identifications of hallmarks, etc and this was his reply.

Hi Don
The metal appears to be silver with
brass fittings. The initials are probably those of the owner of the
buckles. The style of lettering is consistent with early to mid 18th
century examples on spoons.
Fred Zweig

Without a doubt this post and the 1825 militia buckle are two excellent finds to view in the middle of winter.

Don

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Reply from a silversmith

I contacted a silversmith(metalsmith) who enjoys helping with identifications of hallmarks, etc and this was his reply.

Hi Don
The metal appears to be silver with
brass fittings. The initials are probably those of the owner of the
buckles. The style of lettering is consistent with early to mid 18th
century examples on spoons.
Fred Zweig

Without a doubt this post and the 1825 militia buckle are two excellent finds to view in the middle of winter.

Don

Good research, my gut feeling agrees with this. Probably abit early than I put - 1720s-1760s

 

[Don in SJ]

I had one more email exchange with Mr Zweig on the question of do you think it is American or British and this was his reply.

It is next to impossible to tell if the buckle is English or
American. Small items sometimes are missing the English hallmarks.
It is possible that these are American made and a trip to the Boston
Museum of Art and the local library might reveal more information.
Such as a matching pair of buckles attributed to an American smith.



Don

 

[CRUSADER]

Lets hope its US......

http://www.netmarshall.co.uk/bucklepage20.htm

 

[Don in SJ]

Lets hope its US......
http://www.netmarshall.co.uk/bucklepage20.htm

From that website is this statement, not sure if that only applies to English made ones or not, I am assuming so, but anyway, if it is English made then it would be between 1740-1790. If American, depends if this refers to both, but otherwise going by the shape and designs, still the same time frame. I have to look thru my buckles, I swear this pattern is awfully familiar looking to me, not sure if I have seen a similar one posted before somewhere or if I have a parital like this one..........

MARKS ON SILVER - all hallmarked up to 1739. From 1740-1790 buckles weighing less than ten pennyweights were exempt from hallmarking. Makers' marks are still generally used and may be traced from existing records. From 1790 all silver buckles are fully hallmarked.

SHOE BUCKLE SHAPE AND SIZE - a general guide only as there are obviously some exceptions to the rules.
Square - under 2 inches are early-18th century, over 2 inches are after 1760.
Rectangular - 2-2½ long up to 1760, increasing to very large (up to 4 inches long) from the 1770's.
Oval to round - 2-3 inches are more common from the 1750's

DECORATION - mould ornamented, engraved, enamelled, plated, gilded, set with precious or semi-precious stones and 'paste' jewels. Plain buckles particularly in base metals are found throughout the period. Jewelled buckles are solid-set until c1750. Thereafter the backs are opened to distinguish between the true stones and paste, which also became popular for quality buckles.
From 1730's - cast in more intricate and rococo designs with rosettes, twisted ropes, scrolls, beads, nailheads, and grooves.
From 1740's - tooling to suggest close-set faceted stones, some within milled edges.
From 1750's - increasingly elaborate rococo style - bold shouldered outlines with openwork patterns or scrolls.
From 1760's - faceted steel in imitation of jewels set in claws - becoming screw-in studs from 1770's.
From 1770's - large faceted embossments, twisted ribbon effects, tiny facets (bright cutting), large rectangular shapes with plain surfaces or with cut-out perforations.

Don