Help in Iding this U.S. officers Belt Plate

[Oldgunhunter]

Help in Id'ing this U.S. officer's Belt Plate

I've searched for this exact belt plate much over the net. Found in Northern Missouri farm yard.
The plate is missing the belt loop but has the hook. The plate measures appx 2" x 3" ( without the broken belt loop ).
Unlike the 1851 U.S. officer's plate it has short feathers on either side of shield. Everything is pretty high relief. Cast brass
and never a lead back. Would it be an early militia plate? Thanks in advance! Oldgunhunter

 

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[creskol]

Could it be this one?

 

[Oldgunhunter]

Completely Id'd by Creskol!

Could it be this one?


View attachment 658563

Oh, my goodness! That is definately the one. Even to the filed corners on the clip end.
Thanks for the very quick response and help in id'ing the old plate. Since most were found in Virginia , makes you wonder how it made it
to Northern Missouri. Thanks again , Oldgunhunter

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

There's something very odd about that plate. To be a US Model-1851 plate, it should have a solid-cast rectangular belt-holder slot on the opposite end of the plate from the tongue hook. But there SEEMS to be no evidence that a solid-cast belt-holder slot was ever at that location on this plate.

The Model-1874 plate did not have a solid-cast belt-holder slot, but instead had a brass belt-holder "bar" soldered or brazed onto the plate's back at the opposite end from the tongue hook. If such a bar was there but got broken off Oldgunhunter's plate, there should be some evidence (such as solder or brazing-marks) showing where it was attached to the Model-1874 plate's back. Oldgunhunter, does the back of your plate have those spots or marks at the oposite end from the tongue hook? (They might be there, but are hidden from view in your photo by the greenish brass-patina.)

By the way... there is no Model-1874 matchup for your plate in the book posted by my good friend Creskol. But its author, Mr. O'Donnell, has told me he is sure that some rare variations of these plates exist but aren't in his book.

 

[Oldgunhunter]

US Model 1851

There's something very odd about that plate. To be a US Model-1851 plate, it should have a solid-cast rectangular belt-holder slot on the opposite end of the plate from the tongue hook. But there SEEMS to be no evidence that a solid-cast belt-holder slot was ever at that location on this plate.

The Model-1874 plate did not have a solid-cast belt-holder slot, but instead had a brass belt-holder "bar" soldered or brazed onto the plate's back at the opposite end from the tongue hook. If such a bar was there but got broken off Oldgunhunter's plate, there should be some evidence (such as solder or brazing-marks) showing where it was attached to the Model-1874 plate's back. Oldgunhunter, does the back of your plate have those spots or marks at the oposite end from the tongue hook? (They might be there, but are hidden from view in your photo by the greenish brass-patina.)

By the way... there is no Model-1874 matchup for your plate in the book posted by my good friend Creskol. But its author, Mr. O'Donnell, has told me he is sure that some rare variations of these plates exist but aren't in his book.

There is evidence of where the belt holder was. It obviously has broken off as the two tab remnants are still there , on the side opposite the tongue hook. Must have definately been a weak point in this style. Pretty sure Creskol pegged this one. Thanks for the input , Oldgunhunter

 

[CRUSADER]

There is evidence of where the belt holder was. It obviously has broken off as the two tab remnants are still there , on the side opposite the tongue hook. Must have definately been a weak point in this style. Pretty sure Creskol pegged this one. Thanks for the input , Oldgunhunter

Yeap, I can see where they have broken off the very end corners.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Umm... pardon me please, guys... but it looks to my eyes like the broken areas on the corners of Oldgunhunter's plate are at the wrong end of the plate to be remnants of where a solid-cast belt-holder slot broke off.

As shown in Creskol's photo of an intact Model-1851 plate, the slot is on the opposite end from the tongue hook. In Oldgunhunter's photo, the broken corners are on the tongue-hook end. Having the belt-holder slot right next to the tongue-hook wouldn't "work." There's no way to attach the belt to the hook-less, slot-less end of Oldgunhunter's plate.

 

[CRUSADER]

Umm... pardon me please, guys... but it looks to my eyes like the broken areas on the corners of Oldgunhunter's plate are at the wrong end of the plate to be remnants of where a solid-cast belt-holder slot broke off.

As shown in Creskol's photo of an intact Model-1851 plate, the slot is on the opposite end from the tongue hook. In Oldgunhunter's photo, the broken corners are on the tongue-hook end. Having the belt-holder slot right next to the tongue-hook wouldn't "work." There's no way to attach the belt to the hook-less, slot-less end of Oldgunhunter's plate.

No, the broken ends are at the expected end, look closer.

 

[Oldgunhunter]

There are 2 areas on the corners of the tongue hook end that are filed or notched just as the (early 1851 shown in book by Creskol. They may actually be wear from the belt keeper , but there are definitely 2 areas on the tongue end. You can see those notches (wear) in the book photo and on the original plate. The end where the belt loop was is rather flush but exibits being broken. A true weak point on these early plates. Oldgunhunter

Yeap, I can see where they have broken off the very end corners.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Using much higher magnification, I now see what could be broken-off stubs at the non-tongue end of the plate ...so I now agree, it is a Model-1851 plate.