Help authenticating a very strange Lima 1 escudo, and a normal 2 escudo

[TheDuderino]

I found these for sale in a jewelry store. They are mislabeled as being Atocha coins, they are not because the dates on them are 1705 and 1712 and the Atocha wreck was in 1622. One of them is a lima 1 escudo, but features the castle and lion front with the pillar and wave style back instead of the usual style for a lima 1.
The other coin is a lima 2 escudo. Both look to have exceptional striking, not quite perfect , but very close to center.

I have not seen any other authentic or reproduction that look exactly like these, so i need some other hopefully educated opinions on these. I would like to have them but i am not sure about them.

Unfortunately I do not have proper size and wight measurements, as they are set in a pennant. I also cannot see the edge to tell if there is any kind of seam.

Any help appreciated.

Note. The lima 1 is upside down in the front pic, and I don’t have a front pic of the 2 escudo.



This is a reference of a normal style Lima 1 escudo.


My Lima 2 escudo (back only)

 

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[TheDuderino]

Any thoughts at all?

 

[xaos]

As good as the condition looks, the details are horrible...the lion is really bad.
Pretty bad mount as well for such a coin.

What makes you think these are real?

 

[TheDuderino]

I have never seen a 1 escudo with lions and castles on front. Have you? I they look so bad because they are tiny. I have posted this elsewhere and everyone says the same thing about the castles and lions, but completely ignore the fact that they should not be the at all. I am curious if anyone has ever seen this in a 1 escudo cob. I have only ever seen one reproduction like this, but it does not match, and the replica is marked with the word copy (extremely small) this one is not.

I have looked it over very closely and do not see anything that tells me it was cast, or it is a copy. However i am no expert. I am somewhat knowledgeable on the subject, that is all.

Has anyone in the cob forums ever seen an authentic (Lima “1”) escudo made in this style before?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think you should tell the readers that it tested solid gold.

 

[Trez]

Bigcypresshunter !!! wow, long time since I see you post to the cob forum, how you doing? glad to see you back.
As far as the items pictured in this thread...
I cannot be of much help on these pieces...I haven't seen a 1 escudo in that variety is about about as far as I will say on it.
I use to get myself in trouble back in the day with some responses to posts...so nowadays in this "super sensitive time" we now live in, I shall refrain...and I'm not saying/meaning that your super sensitive just to clarify.
Did you buy them?
I know they are some real knowledgeable guys that view these posts, maybe one will chime in.
Couple things....what is the bezel made of?

 

[TheDuderino]

No i didn't buy them. I found them at a jewelry shop, im not going to buy them unless im sure what they are. They want $300 for the 1 escudo, and about $400 for the 2 escudos. The bezel is silver. And the seller has no knowledge of what it is. They had it labeled as an Atocha coin, and i had to explain to them that it couldn’t be because of the dates, and what they are supposed to be. They acquired them from an estate sale. I am supposed to go back to this shop next week to get some information in who owned it before and where they got it.

 

[TheDuderino]

Thanks for posting by the way, and im not sensitive at all.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcypresshunter !!! wow, long time since I see you post to the cob forum, how you doing? glad to see you back.
As far as the items pictured in this thread...
I cannot be of much help on these pieces...I haven't seen a 1 escudo in that variety is about about as far as I will say on it.
I use to get myself in trouble back in the day with some responses to posts...so nowadays in this "super sensitive time" we now live in, I shall refrain...and I'm not saying/meaning that your super sensitive just to clarify.
Did you buy them?
I know they are some real knowledgeable guys that view these posts, maybe one will chime in.
Couple things....what is the bezel made of?

Hello Trez. Good to see you are still around. Im off work for the summer so I have been checking on the what is it forum while doing some other work online. I told him the Spanish Cob forum has some very knowlegable people. He says the gold tested 22k i think and the bezel is silver.

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

Hello Trez. Good to see you are still around. Im off work for the summer so I have been checking on the what is it forum while doing some other work online. I told him the Spanish Cob forum has some very knowlegable people. He says the gold tested 22k i think and the bezel is silver.

These can be created, but usually not perfectly. I have seen a gold 2 escudo in the Florida Collection using a Lima 2 reals front die (1710 2 escudos coin, plate 6, Spanish Colonial Gold Coins, Alan Craig) but I think this is only a one-off type of error done for some reason, and in 1711 they went back to the regular 2 escudos obverse. Your submission is probably an art coin, done like one of my experiments, which was a decent 1698 Mexico 4 escudos royal.

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

People will substitute the sides from other coins to make a composite that still looks genuine, but is not a copy of a real coins, so not in violation of the coin copy law. It's hard to make the composite sides for a Lima one escudo. I made them one time but never had the guts to cast one out, as it is a super-rare coin and would be a bad idea.

 

[A2coins]

Good info

 

[DetecTom]

I think it looks awesome- real or not. I like the look of them. Pretty neat

 

[Honest Samuel]

Thanks for posting by the way, and im not sensitive at all.

I am over sensitive, I cry all the time for no reasons.

 

[Honest Samuel]

With pirate coins such as these, sent them in to a third graded services.