Harassed by " The Man "

[team sidewinder]

The story I use when some authority " The Man " questions me about my metal detecting on public property ( usually a park or tot lot ) in a different town than my own where I really don't know what the metal detecting laws are. I tell them this story. I make sure I don't have my wedding band on and tell them I just lost my wedding band the other day while in this park area and I am trying to find it. Or my wife lost her wedding ring while we were visiting here the other day. Or while here in this " tot lot " with my grandkids ( I really don't have any ) I just lost my wedding ring and am looking for it. Works every time but you might not want to use it more than once in that town but usually they will tell you to continue and not do it anymore and will let you at least finish looking in that area. Most police are very sympathetic to the plight of a man/woman who is looking for a lost wedding ring. They don't want to look as a town who doesn't welcome visitors or treats their visitors like criminals without just cause.

 

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[treasurehound]

If that works for you that is great but I am not going to make up a story to hunt. I have only been approached once by an angry woman telling me it was illegal to hunt in the park I was in. It was a very small park dating back to the 1800's. She calls the park adminstrator and hands me the phone. I told him I was metal detecting and he told me no problem. He said they were having drug problems at the park and the lady was on the neighborhood watch and was concerned. He even gave me another site that I could go hunt. I have been approached by several police officers and have always had a good visit with them. One welcomed me to the park and a couple others gave me some places to go as well. Parks and shools in my area are ok to hunt in unless they have a sign saying no metal detecting (maybe a couple in the 50 plus parks I have hunted).

 

[LifeNRA]

I think I would look for permission in another town before just going on. Every town has there own ordnances that they follow. Since you have internet why not try to email there office first, then go in personally to seek permission. I think its best to talk to someone in person rather then email. They can make a better judgment just in case they have nothing in the books about MDing. My town has nothing about MDing, I had to call and talk to the parks manager. They said I can, but that I can not dig any holes. Even though I explained about how it was important the hole needs to be. I feel good about the holes I dig, there are no traces of them in my yard. So I can only dig lightly in the areas where they have mulch down, I am fine with this.

 

[fella]

Sweet! Just lie! Yeah that's the answer!
As long as it serves YOUR greater end, I guess it's ok!

Integrity zero...congrats!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I think I would look for permission in another town before just going on. Every town has there own ordnances that they follow. Since you have internet why not try to email there office first, then go in personally to seek permission. I think its best to talk to someone in person rather then email. They can make a better judgment just in case they have nothing in the books about MDing. My town has nothing about MDing, I had to call and talk to the parks manager. They said I can, but that I can not dig any holes. Even though I explained about how it was important the hole needs to be. I feel good about the holes I dig, there are no traces of them in my yard. So I can only dig lightly in the areas where they have mulch down, I am fine with this.

lifeNRA, and fella, while on the one hand, I can sympathize with your gut-reaction that team-side-winder is making up a story, so as to be left-alone, yet on the OTHER hand, the notion that the solution to be "left alone" is to go asking ahead of time: "can I?" is also not the answer to the dilema of how to be left alone.

life NRA, if as you say: "....Every town has there own ordnances that they follow....." then gee, a person can just look up those "ordinances" for themselves, RIGHT? And if there were nothing there saying "no metal detecting", then presto, there's no prohibitions for md'ing. Why would you say: " I would look for permission in another town before just going on", if there were no specific prohibitions, to begin with? I mean, would you think you "need permission" to fly a frisbee ? The risk of waltzing into city halls and asking "can I?" is that you risk someone to tell you "no", when there's really no rule that says such a thing, nor would anyone have ever cared (unless you were being a nuisance in some other way, or "sticking out" like a sore thumb, blah blah) Or silly things like you heard "yes but can't dig" type stuff. Well gee, sure, and what's the connotation of "dig"? HOLES, right? But you and I know we're NOT going to leave holes, thus fulfilling the intent of that, RIGHT?

Thus, no, going first and asking "can I" is not the solution either. Lest you find yourself the victim of "no one cared TILL you asked" pyschology

 

[LifeNRA]

Well, you and I know that there are slobs in everything being done. Slob fisherman, slob hunters, slob hikers, slob campers, and slob metal detectors. I could go on and on! Just because a town doesn't have any stipulations on MDing, doesn't mean you can just go in! To avoid any confrontations why not just ask? Is that too simple to do? Must be.

 

[scotty544]

Actually nra do you have to ask about carrying a gun in another town? is that polite or needed?? I am with Tom, if nothing says you cant, than by default, you CAN! No permission needed in a public place ... PUBLIC , the people out there dropping the trash and scurrying about smoking cigs and doing whatever have no more rights to be there doing what they do then I do. You would think that someone who pushes the nra agenda would recognize this. And yes I am a member of the nra and yes I conceal carry, 2nd amendment buddy. Freedom to md in a public place is a right, unless otherwise prohibited by law. If I am in a private area, then by all means, I will always seek permission first. Read the regs at the park if they are posted, if they are not posted then you have the right to get your dig on.

 

[fella]

I am with Tom, if nothing says you cant, than by default, you CAN! No permission needed in a public place ... PUBLIC

Agreed!

 

[beerguy]

I went for years just assuming that parks and schools are open.
This year I found a parcel that a school district owns from before turn of the last century.
I called the school Superintendants office and asked generically if they have rules against it.
They said that it was fine as long as kids were not in session..

Our State parks system in Washington is site by site.
Most allow it, but some have specific areas where it is permissible.
I told the ranger at a local State park that I have detected on an 'off limits' area for years, and he gave me a look that said 'whatever' but didn't say no.

I think that a personal visit to whatever office is involved would be more successful than an email.
These people are generally busy, so be friendly, but to the point.
Practice an elevator speech, (30 seconds to tell your story) that leads with who you are, where you live and for how long.
Touch on your interest in the local history, tell what care you take when recovering targets, and also tell them that you take any trash you find out of the park and into the trash.

Most people charged with these duties are trying to keep their parks and schools safe and clean.
Tell them how you help them in their mission.

 

[LifeNRA]

You all are not getting what I am saying here. Why is it so damn hard to just ask? Instead of lying your way through if the police come up to you and ask what your doing? Really. You will get further in life being honest than being deceitful!

First off, this is not about carrying a gun, getting the right kind of permit for a hunt, or whatever outside of MDing! Its about doing the right thing! Some places I have talk to will not allow MDing BECAUSE SOME ******* DUG THE PLACE UP! They ruined it for EVERYBODY!!! Seriously, I am tired of people who have no morals who think that its there right to do anything they damn well please.

State parks here in PA you just cant start digging the area up! You need a permit from EACH individual state park you go into. Even though the land is PUBLICLY owned! Well then lets all go to Gettysburg with our MD's and see how long that will last!

Its all about doing the right thing, period!

 

[LifeNRA]

BTW, this thread is about lying to police and avoiding whether or not it was allowed to MD the area he or she was in!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

BTW, this thread is about lying to police and avoiding whether or not it was allowed to MD the area he or she was in!

Sure, maybe the thread started about a "little white lie" to get busy-bodies to leave you alone. Yes, that's what the thread was about. But it detoured to a "solution" to "avoid" that lie: your proprosal to go ask permission.

Thus, to address THAT, a few of your quotes:

a) "Well, you and I know that there are slobs in everything being done. Slob fisherman, slob hunters, slob hikers, slob campers, and slob metal detectors."

Ok. Fine. So what? You and I aren't "slob" md'rs. We'll leave no trace of our presence. Thus, just like the "resonponsible hiker" and the "responsible fisherman", they need not think they have to grovel and "ask permission" JUST because others in those hobbies are slobs. Thus .... your statement makes no sense, that just because slobs in a venue exist, that all others somehow must now grovel? I just don't get your line of reasoning If you mean that some busy-body passerby might THINK you are "one of those irresonsible slob md'rs", FINE. Sure. Avoid such lookie-lous and go at low traffic times. Since when is it our responsibility to make sure that everyone "loves us"? I mean, for pete's sake, if someone flips you off in traffic (because they think you just made a bad lane change), do you run after them for permission to drive and to make them change their minds and love you? I don't get your logic NRA.

b) "Just because a town doesn't have any stipulations on MDing, doesn't mean you can just go in!"

It most CERTAINLY DOES mean that you can just "go in". In the same way that you can assume you can "go in" and fly frisbees, in the absence of a rule saying "no frisbee flying". Why do you make the implicit connotation that md'ing = evil, wrong, and dangerous? If this is your automatic definition, then sure, we "need permission" (since it's evil and wrong and damaging). BUT NO, I DO NOT make that automatic equivalence. If you think it's that horrible and in-need-of-someone's princely say-so as you grovel at their feet, then why oh why oh why did you get into this hobby NRA? Perhaps this isn't for you?

c) "To avoid any confrontations why not just ask? "

I answered this before, but I'll answer again: Because you risk a "no", when there's no real rule that says such a thing. All-too-often it's just the easy answer for a desk-bound bureaucrat. When in fact, perhaps they would never have cared or noticed. Think of it NRA: the mere fact that someone is standing their asking "can I?" simply infers that something is wrong or askew, that you "needed to ask" to begin with (lest why would you be asking if it were innocuous?) This is not subconsciously lost on the person you're asking, and merely dictates their "safe" answer. There's been LOTS of places where people md'd with no problems or issues (so long as you weren't being a nuisance, and avoiding gripers at high traffic times, etc...). But then lo-&-behold, someone takes it upon themselves to waltz into city hall and ask "can I?" Well gee, what does that mean? Is there a new rule or policy? Don't you see you'd have just been the latest victim of "no one cared till you asked?" And worse yet: guess what will happen the next time that clerk sees another md'r in the park? She/he will remember the earlier inquiry, and START BOOTING OTHERS! I've seen that happen before. And then guess what? We all curse the guy who "got the park put off limits" by going and asking st*pid questions. See??!!

d) "Its all about doing the right thing, period! "

Why can't "doing the right thing" be for one to look up the laws for himself? What could be more "law abiding" and "right" than looking up rules/laws for oneself afterall ?

 

[Sandman]

I am totally with Tom of CA on this. If you don't see it posted as Metal Detecting is not allowed it is OK. But if you ask someone they can just say NO as a matter of course. You don't ask it you can toss a ball to your kid, play with a Frisbee or sit on the grass while having a picnic, why do you think you should ask if you can metal detect?

 

[LifeNRA]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh I do see!!! I am the person who got you booted from MDing a public property. I am soooooooooooo sorry for infringing on your rights! So if the PUBLIC property says something to the effect of NO DAMAGE what-so-ever on said property, you will go on and dig up as you see fit. Then complain about the police giving you a citation for your actions.

This whole idea started with a lie and not taking accountability for their actions. This is a sad trend I been seeing for a while now. No one takes accountability for their own actions, lets just blame the next guy!!!

I am so sorry for my actions here on this thread, please except my apology.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

So if the PUBLIC property says something to the effect of NO DAMAGE what-so-ever on said property, you will go on and dig up as you see fit.

life-nra, let me ask you a question: When you go "dig up" on public property, do you leave "damage"? If so, then sure, ask away. And also let me advise you to return to target recovery 101 class, in the hopes that you'll learn to stop doing that damage you speak of. For me and most others here? No, we cover our holes and do no damage.

Then complain about the police giving you a citation for your actions.

If you can please give us an example of someone who got a "citation" for detecting a place where there was no rules saying "no metal detecting", please let us know. I suspect any example you can try to give, will no doubt be someone who couldn't take a warning, or someone night sneaking obvious historic monuments, etc...

 

[LifeNRA]

I love the spin you put on things here!!! You go from guns to saying about the damage "I" do!

The CITY OR TOWNSHIP rules could say NOTHING about metal detecting, but yet say no damage of PUBLIC PROPERTY WHAT SO EVER!!! GET IT! That means digging! Just like on STATE OWN HUNTING grounds. There is a ruling about removing or destroying natural plants and such. WAIT! Just so you know I AM NOT DESTROYING PLANTS ON STATE OWNED HUNTING GROUNDS! There I feel better now!

Yes I know all about fixing the holes we create. But then again we are again off from the OP thread, AGAIN!

This is a moot point! Lets all just lie when something like this comes up! I didn't come here to argue but to make a point that its not ok to lie about the things we are doing with our metal detectors. With this kind of attitude ill just keep to myself, you all can just lie when asked what your doing!

 

[RotZorn]

Sweet! Just lie! Yeah that's the answer!
As long as it serves YOUR greater end, I guess it's ok!

Integrity zero...congrats!

Yeah right with ya here.....

I don't ask if its not posted and always ask if its private land.

If there is no rule saying I can't, why give the opportunity for someone to say "no"?

Lets look at this in the cold light of day.....

Who will you ask? More than likely someone who sits behind a desk, and knows nothing about low impact detecting- which is what most of us practice. Now, after you ask, they are going to weight things in their mind, and even though there are no rules/laws forbidding it- They will 99% of the time say no-

Why will they say no- because you asked, and they really don't know you and what you might do. You have to remember that this person is on the job, and he or she has a boss- and if you are some idiot who digs 18 inch holes and don't fill them back in...... Then "the man" comes around wanting to know what the hell you think you're doing to "his" park?......

To which the 18 inch hole idiot replies-"...well Bob at the front desk up at city parks and recreation office said it was ok"

Is this a far fetched scenario? Yes, but not that far fetched. This is an exaggeration of a mini scenario that will play out in Bobs mind when you ask- because if he says yes- then you go screw something up he could potentially lose his job because he told you that you were allow to detect/dig there.......so guess what? The shortest and easiest way for him to deal with you, (because to him you're just another part of his busy day) is just be safe and say no- rather its against the law/park regs or not- or simply not stated either way.

People for the most part are uninformed about this hobby, and truthfully couldn't care less. So 9/10 times, that's who you will be asking, and if they don't know and don't want to be be held responsible for your actions it's easy for them to just say no and go back to their day.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I love the spin you put on things here!!! You go from guns to saying about the damage "I" do!

The CITY OR TOWNSHIP rules could say NOTHING about metal detecting, but yet say no damage of PUBLIC PROPERTY WHAT SO EVER!!! GET IT! That means digging! Just like on STATE OWN HUNTING grounds. There is a ruling about removing or destroying natural plants and such. WAIT! Just so you know I AM NOT DESTROYING PLANTS ON STATE OWNED HUNTING GROUNDS! There I feel better now!

Yes I know all about fixing the holes we create. But then again we are again off from the OP thread, AGAIN!

This is a moot point! Lets all just lie when something like this comes up! I didn't come here to argue but to make a point that its not ok to lie about the things we are doing with our metal detectors. With this kind of attitude ill just keep to myself, you all can just lie when asked what your doing!

LifeNRA, I was only trying to make a point, that when you talk about laws about "damage" (and defacement, and alterations, etc...) that NO, we do not damage, alter or deface anything. If you leave the area with no trace of your presence, then by logical definition, you and I have not damagED, alterED, or defacED anything, now have you?

Sure someone can debate the semantics of that definition (d/t the temporary evil process of extraction). So too can someone flip you off when you're driving because they think you're tail-gating. Just avoid such lookie-lou busy-bodies, and pick low traffic times.

I hate to say it, but detecting is a little like nose-picking: We all ... uh ... sort of use a little .... uh ... discretion in our timing. But no, it's not mys or your obligation to get others to love us and give us "permission to pick our noses". You just do it, and be a little discreet. Is this a gaurantee that everyone love you and roll out the red carpet for you? No. If that's what you think should automatically follow you wherever you detect, then ... no, it aint gonna happen. Heck, I even had a lady tell me my metal detector was bothering her dog once! (I think she thought it emitted some frequency that only dogs hear? )

As for rules regarding moving plants, etc... : Sure: That's so that no one thinks he can back up his truck the park and harvest all the sod or roses for use in his own garden. Might that same rule be morphed to say you can disturb a single grass blade in your quest to get that coin out of the ground? Sure! But seriously now, if you want to start down that road, then gee, why stop there? I mean, you're probably running afoul of lost & found laws too, right? And did you pay the IRS taxes on the value of the items you found? It's endless.

 

[RotZorn]

I love the spin you put on things here!!! You go from guns to saying about the damage "I" do!

The CITY OR TOWNSHIP rules could say NOTHING about metal detecting, but yet say no damage of PUBLIC PROPERTY WHAT SO EVER!!! GET IT! That means digging! Just like on STATE OWN HUNTING grounds. There is a ruling about removing or destroying natural plants and such. WAIT! Just so you know I AM NOT DESTROYING PLANTS ON STATE OWNED HUNTING GROUNDS! There I feel better now!

Yes I know all about fixing the holes we create. But then again we are again off from the OP thread, AGAIN!

This is a moot point! Lets all just lie when something like this comes up! I didn't come here to argue but to make a point that its not ok to lie about the things we are doing with our metal detectors. With this kind of attitude ill just keep to myself, you all can just lie when asked what your doing!

I wouldn't lie about it. I can't say for sure I wouldn't be a smartass when asked "what do you think you're doing?"......hello? Metal detector, pinpointer, small digging tools, small plastic drop cloth......

"Planting corn, what the hell's it look like"

If its public land ,set aside for public use, for the purpose of recreation- I'm merely exercising my RIGHTS to do so by MDing- as a citizen and tax payer. My rights end where the next persons begin however, so yes, we should all be careful not to damage the spots we hunt.

But if asked to stop even on public lands I would comply- but I may not be happy about it. If issued a citation of some sort, I really wouldn't be happy about it..... But I would not pay it right away..... I'd wait for my day in court and argue my case. Probably with pictures in hand of the area I hunted, taken before I left the place I was issued said citation.

Sometimes you have to defend your rights, as a good citizen you should always be prepared to do so.

 

[McKinney_5900]

BTW, this thread is about lying to police and avoiding whether or not it was allowed to MD the area he or she was in!

Like the police don't lie to you? Many are trained to do just that thing. Take a criminal justice course or Google about it. The "laws" in uniform lie regularly.