Gun guys! How old might this be?

[halfdime]

Last week I posted, among a few other items, an 1838 large cent from an old homestead in the neighborhood where I grew up. Before I started, another neighbor told me about the "musket" found on the property I was about to do. Today, I went over to do some more detecting and some of the surviving family was there. The father died just about a month ago; it was he who found the gun in question. One of the sons-in-law went to a shed and pulled it out to show me; I was duly impressed. I was a history major and don't know much about guns but I can appreciate the history of most artifacts. I was happy to see it, but I didn't do cartwheels; I figured the gun had to be at least a hundred years old, probably more, so I appreciated it from that perspective and thanked the host for showing it to me. He put it away and came back out a few minutes later and gave it to me! That was the furthest thing from my mind when I first saw it; I certainly didn't covet it or hold it tight to my chest. Evidently, the deceased had found it while digging for some project in his yard; there was an old homestead a few hundred feet away and we figure that anything "older" was associated with it. For example, the 1951 Washington quarter found there today wasn't. Is this today's find? No. Could have been, had it not been found already. I hope the pictures help with identification.

 

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[david680]

Not a area I am a expert in by any means, but I'd guess 1850-70 would be the time period.

 

[Citiboy289]

Not a area I am a expert in by any means, but I'd guess 1850-70 would be the time period. Reminds me of a Spencer carbine.

Again where it was FOUND sometimes helps in the ID My best guess is that your looking at a Carbine or Musketoon Could be an 1853 Enfield Musketoon It is not a musket by any means since the Barrel is to short If it was located in Georgia could be a Cook & Brother carbine

 

[The Rebel]

What you have appears to be a sporterized (from military to civilian based on the ramrod) percussion conversion musket (flintlock to cap & ball) based on that black spot on the top of the lock plate. A light brushing of a brass wire brush or electrolysis would help.

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

Is that a wood stock ? I would think the wood would be rotted being in the ground for years, I am not sure though.

 

[halfdime]

Is that a wood stock ? I would think the wood would be rotted being in the ground for years, I am not sure though.

It's wood.

 

[DFX DAVE in M.D.]

Wow, its in nice shape, I am not challenging you, I was just wondering how the wood did not rot, maybe it was found under a porch in shallow dirt. I dug an outhouse out once and the wood liner was still in great shape about 4 foot under the ground. I like the gun you have, it was nice that they gave it to you.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Replica?

 

[l.cutler]

It is a foreign flintlock musket of some sort converted to percussion and most likely imported for the Civil War. It was cut down at some point. Early in the war almost any sort of musket available was bought up to arm the troops. I haven't been able to positively ID it, but obsolete arms were bought from almost all of the European countries. With enough patience, you may be able to find it in an image search.

 

[Idaho]

Looks like a converted "Brown Bess" to me.

Is the barrel Rifled? If there is no Rifling in the barrel there is a good chance it is a Brown Bess.

The stock of these were made of hard wood, usually English Maple, if it were buried in dry ground there would be little rotting.

In it's current shape the value would be vastly reduced.

Great find by the way!!!

 

[Eagleye]

Cool gun! Would go nice mounted on a wall

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Value and condition aside this piece is a survivor and part of US history!
The best reason to display this piece is because of the story it tells us when we look at it ... few antiques can stir up a good story better then an old musket!

Congrats,
Dave

 

[beez0404]

Very nice piece even if you never are able to identify it. Congratulations.

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

my first thought for an id THE rare & sought after

" CS Richmond carbide" ,

but after a few comparisons ,

negative , lock plate looks different unless maybe it is a high hump .

Great relic like that one usually spells primo hunting site !

moi Found parts of CW rifles , very interesting

I cutler has some good points with his comment .

HH



CMD

 

[Red James Cash]

I dont think the conversion process,from flint to percussion,was ever completed.No sign of a nipple drum,powder drum,near the hammer.Unless of course it was broken off and signs of it covered by rust.

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

I dont think the conversion process,from flint to percussion,was ever completed.No sign of a nipple drum,powder drum,near the hammer.Unless of course it was broken off and signs of it covered by rust.

I agree , hard to tell but does look like a missing part .

 

[BosnMate]

The lock plate does look like a flint lock conversion. However, it doesn't look like the barrel ever had a drum, it looks to me like the hammer is sitting on the nipple. I've seen caplock guns with the nipple directly into the barrel like that, but I can't remember where or when, so that's no help. If it's a shortened musket, it had to have been cut off at the breech, which is unlikely, because the wood wouldn't fit the barrel properly. So I'm thinking it was built as a carbine, perhaps using old lock plates that were converted to cap lock. I would like to see the side plate on the other side, that would be a dead giveaway with a Brown Bess conversion, which I don't think it is, I think the gun was built that way. If it has a serpent side plate, it could be a late Indian Trade musket. It could also be a parts gun. Locally in the late 1800's there was a mill wright that lived locally, who manufactured parts guns. He took old muzzle loading firearms parts and re-built them into mostly half stock rifles. There are a couple in the museum that have pistol locks on half stock rifles, so there are a number of possibilities. There are people that collect found firearms in shapes just like yours. I had a found in the woods early Winchester in bad shape, but still with the worm eaten stock, and sold it for $400 to a guy who wanted it more than I did.

 

[halfdime]

The lock plate does look like a flint lock conversion. However, it doesn't look like the barrel ever had a drum, it looks to me like the hammer is sitting on the nipple. I've seen caplock guns with the nipple directly into the barrel like that, but I can't remember where or when, so that's no help. If it's a shortened musket, it had to have been cut off at the breech, which is unlikely, because the wood wouldn't fit the barrel properly. So I'm thinking it was built as a carbine, perhaps using old lock plates that were converted to cap lock. I would like to see the side plate on the other side, that would be a dead giveaway with a Brown Bess conversion, which I don't think it is, I think the gun was built that way. If it has a serpent side plate, it could be a late Indian Trade musket. It could also be a parts gun. Locally in the late 1800's there was a mill wright that lived locally, who manufactured parts guns. He took old muzzle loading firearms parts and re-built them into mostly half stock rifles. There are a couple in the museum that have pistol locks on half stock rifles, so there are a number of possibilities. There are people that collect found firearms in shapes just like yours. I had a found in the woods early Winchester in bad shape, but still with the worm eaten stock, and sold it for $400 to a guy who wanted it more than I did.

Some of the woodwork on the stock looks "local" as if someone did an amateur job piecing together this gun. Just my observation.

 

[WheatCent]

around 1840-60

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I think you might have a US Model 1816 musket. The lockplate definitely shows that it is a conversion due to the small piece of brass ahead of the hammer. The conversion would likely have been done in the 1850's when most of the muskets in military and militia service were converted. Look very closely at the lock, there should be stamping on it toward the rear and possibly a stamp just ahead of the hammer. There may also be stamps in the wood or in the butt plate. (a good pic of the butt plate can help in the id) It's definitely been cut down and probably spent the later years as a shotgun like a lot of other rifles after the civil war. Definitely a VERY nice gift! I'd be delighted to have it on my wall!!

Edit: As to why there isn't evidence of a drum on the barrel, the drums were removed and the flash hole welded shut, and the nipple was installed directly into the barrel. I beleive it was called the "Belgian Cone Method". On some guns you can see traces of that work, but I suspect the corrosion has obscured it here.


edit: added pic