Gold Placer observations from a gold Bullion Dealer and Federal Claim owner

[Tuolumne]

Im lucky enough to be a miner and a refiner. Dealing with bullion products and metal recycling, I also see things from the selling and buying public perspective.

A lot of talk this summer was about the shortage of silver blanks to make bullion product, but that seems to easing with only the RCM 100oz bars taking a while to get. All the other coins and rounds are live and available in monster box form. Gold coins and bars are easy to get. We buy scrap metal mostly in jewelry form but since we have a XRF we also get action from load mining and one man operations, like most prospectors on here, bringing in chunky placer.

I am in the San Francisco area and I can tell you as far as gold, there is one product that is definitely in rare supply and that is placer gold and nuggets. I hardly every see it come in, and since our company pays just a few percent below spot for the placer gold we get quite a bit of regulars leaking their sluiced treasures. But like the drought, this exchange of placer has slowed to a trickle and in some places is not to be found without super high premiums above spot.

Most of the mined gold around the world is invisible to the naked eye, carlon trend style measured in microns and weighed in ounces per tun of ore. Of the few percent that is placer, the number drops off more for nuggets over 1/4 ozt.

Here in Alta California since the dredging ban, the placer is not coming into the market as usual, and what is coming is being slowly leaked out from past dredging years ago or not at all due to the steady 5 year bear gold market with people shorting the market down and the price dropping significantly...

A lot of retail bullion and local coin shops in my area are selling at spot plus 30% for just flour gold, most places going $40-$60 dollars per gram. This was the case at the big coin convention shows and the vendors at our local gold shows in Sonora.

That being the case, anytime I can get a nugget for spot I grab it. I have a a guy who lets me buy at 90% of spot. So i can get it for $30-$32 dollars a gram when the going price as of 12/15/2015 10:10am is $34.20 per gram for pure gold based on spot....


for my portfolio I have 1/2 in bullion coin and bar, and the rest half in nuggets over 1/4 ounce and the remaining in very chunky dredged placer.

My thoughts as a dealer of gold coins and bars is that I can always get micron refined bullion but I just cant go out and buy California placer in quantity or at reasonable price. If your nerdy like me you've called and drove all over the mother load and the valley all they way to Callahan and back looking for placer, its just rare commodity these days.

Now we know that the flood gold in many places gets renewed, but for the most part we can agree that most of the chunky placer is not renewed at the sail gold pace. On a geological time scale placer is a finite resource, tertiary river/stream gold also can be cleaned out never to return again. With that being said, we all know that most of the gold is still in the mother load or just under our detectors range lol!

Im hedging my bets that gemmy placer and nuggets will be purchased and hoarded as our quantitative easing and fiat currencies all grow in supply and confidence in them diminishes.

I get people coming in to my dealership to buy junk silver dimes to barter with incase of the worse case monetary collapse, but today the people who are selling, buying, and trading placer for funny green money are already showing us that these type of transactions are always going on, or better said, have not stopped. I can choose to buy exactly $1500 worth of placer for investment and not have to pay California sales tax, where as if I buy a gold ounce coin I still need to buy another 10gram swiss bar or 25 silver coins to get me to that limit $1500 no tax investment threshold. Being a dealer of Bullion i am spoiled to see and touch all the gold and coins but the only treasure that catches my eye is real placer.

What makes it better is that I can pay the miner direct.

We all know in California that alot of real miners have been suffering from the dredge ban and numerous other laws trying to target high banking, road closures, mercury miraculously walking on water floating down the stream nonsense. I think we should have more local support and trading platform for trading in placer. We need a farmers market for miners set up at the gold shows that allow for a smaller booth fee than normal business booths where we can have a coop of people selling their product for the benefit of all, miner direct!

I do not know if T-net is the right platform but it would be cool to see a Forum for people looking to trade/purchase placer and other finds. The original mining laws were for people to engage in this way, with Abraham Lincoln's full support to make a profit for the miners who were willing to help build our economy.

What are your thoughts on the placer gold and nugget markets in your local areas and how accessible are those transaction opportunities for those who want miner direct and don't want to pay ridiculous prices found on ebay or through pay dirt enterprises, industrial operations where machines and no hands process the gold,or gold town tourist traps selling at high premiums....??

Im hedging my bets that chunky placer will be a scarce commodity soon in my area- your thoughts?

 

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[winners58]

Federal Claim? I don't work for the government, they could be described as federally-registered claims.
Buy low sell high, I buy and sell my gold on eBay.
I've tried selling to shops that advertise 80-90% of spot then you get in there
it's at 18K scrap price plus a handling fee, it wouldn't be so bad if they were up front about it.
it may be their policy but It seems dishonest so I just wont do it.

 

[Terry Soloman]

I buy nuggets and chunky placer from miners all the time. If you are really part of the community, you should have no problem finding honest sellers or buyers.

 

[Hoser John]

Ez for a honest miner to find a honest buyer and conversely BE SAFE. I do my sales(never ever buy) in the banks safe deposit box room or at another a conference room is at my disposal. KEEP them biggies say a gram up as getting rare for inlays, earrings and pendants according to jeweler friends-John

 

[Tuolumne]

I buy nuggets and chunky placer from miners all the time. If you are really part of the community, you should have no problem finding honest sellers or buyers.

thats interesting, so in your area you have not seen anything significant as far as slow down in trading or gold size...is that new gold or old gold?

 

[Tuolumne]

so thats a second report besides mine from Nor cal that noticed coarse gold and nuggets gram market is tight.
Will we see a renaissance of the more coveted chunky placer if we finally get a navigable dredging permit process in California?

Seems like the load mine specimens are leaked out but the metal detector nuggets are more steady slow stream into the market.

Maybe some of you are like me and wont ever sell anything you found so far, So I assume maybe a 1/4 of t-net like to hold on to there treasures.

Any commercial miners want to talk about how the gold price going down has lead to high grading of the ore and how it lessens the life of a mine over the course of its mining by not being able to go back to get the lower grade economically and safety wise?
The subject of placer vs micron market gold is what interest me.. I think because of the bear market price that this is happening, mines are high grading, consolidating into bigger companies to handle the debt loads better.

Im interested if you've seen a drop off in chunky placer from areas affected by dredging controls or even sluicing controls back east for instance.

How has regulation affected the quality of the gold miners can find?

So if anyone has thoughts on that Id be interested to hear from your part of the gold areas around the country too...I know the claim owners next to me on all sides universally agree that we cant be full time unless dredging comes back in our neck of the mother load.....

 

[Terry Soloman]

thats interesting, so in your area you have not seen anything significant as far as slow down in trading or gold size...is that new gold or old gold?

I buy from some small operations in Arizona, as I have known folks prospecting and mining there for many years. Just recently however, I got a very fair offer on some Northern California gold nuggets from a miner out there, so I snapped them up as well. I think it is always slow in the nugget buying game. I think it helps if you understand how hard nuggetshooting is to really strike a fair deal for all involved.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Nugget shooting is HARD? Now ya tell me Terry! LOL

Todd,
The weekend warrior types usually don't sell off any nuggets they find. To many of them they're like hunting trophies are to hunters. They're not out trying to make a living off of mining so not selling doesn't effect them one bit. Those of us that do this for a living are another matter entirely. We have to sell or starve to put a fine point on it. Between doing research into areas, finding deposits, doing the due diligence dance, getting the claim filed and recorded properly there's a ton of work before you even start the real mining. Then with the gold priced going up and down like a yo-yo it's a wonder anyone actually wants to do this on a small scale. It's very hard work both mentally and physically with no promise of a pay check at the end of the week. Is it any wonder than those that can afford to hold onto those nice nuggets are doing so?

 

[Tuolumne]

Nugget shooting is HARD? Now ya tell me Terry! LOL

Todd,
The weekend warrior types usually don't sell off any nuggets they find. To many of them they're like hunting trophies are to hunters. They're not out trying to make a living off of mining so not selling doesn't effect them one bit. Those of us that do this for a living are another matter entirely. We have to sell or starve to put a fine point on it. Between doing research into areas, finding deposits, doing the due diligence dance, getting the claim filed and recorded properly there's a ton of work before you even start the real mining. Then with the gold priced going up and down like a yo-yo it's a wonder anyone actually wants to do this on a small scale. It's very hard work both mentally and physically with no promise of a pay check at the end of the week. Is it any wonder than those that can afford to hold onto those nice nuggets are doing so?

well no one pays you for the hard work thats for sure, they pay you for the gold. Recording a claim out here is not really hard and doesn't take much time at all, its not even that expensive, cheaper than basic sluice equipment.....finding, locating, or buying a good claim is a different story...... In your area of arizona, you have lots of big gem/gold shows, have you noticed people hoarding their finds or is it the same ol same ol placer on the market. I dont know about the yo yo pricing, weve been in a steady declining bear market for many years now, unless you short the market anyone who's bought gold bullion in the last years has lost money............Its nice to hear from those in different areas to see what the scene is.....

Gresham's law is an economic principle that states: "When a government overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money will flood into circulation."

so are people buying placer or nugs to hold, people selling gold for funny money or in case of working miners, having to sell asap for market rate to pay the bills and make a living? right now in Nor cal bullion is available and big nuggets and chunky placer is not coming to the refiners as it had in past 10 years

 

[goldenIrishman]

Actually Todd I agree that the filing part is easy to do. It's all the research that goes into finding an area that is actually worth filing on that a major pain at times. Between locating an area, checking the geology of the area, checking the status of that area for existing claims and if it's open to entry is time consuming if you're doing it right. This can mean several trips to the county recorders office and digging through the records for hours on end. Sites like MyLandMatters.org can make getting the basic information together a lot easier now days but you still have to go to the county records to get exact descriptions of any existing claims to avoid stepping on any toes. Even then many of the claims do not have proper descriptions so you have to decipher them.

While I'm a full time miner, I am one of the lucky ones that doesn't have to rely on mining alone to keep my head above water. I've got other income that covers the bills while I do research. Not only do I hunt for areas worth claiming, but I am also learning mining law, geology, hydrology as well as refining my cartography skills even further. As soon as this weird cold snap decides to move out of my area, I'll be boots on the ground again as I've got well over 2 dozen sites that the research is finished up on and I'm ready to start testing. My plan is to have several claims filed and ready to mine. Soon as one is played out, I'll move over to one of the others and start working it.

As far as the gold shows go, I've got no idea as I don't usually go to them. I might hit the one in Lost Wages that's coming up but I'll only be checking out the new equipment. I'm a firm believer in working smarter instead of harder and anything that can make this easier is of interest to me.

 

[goldenIrishman]

BTW.... on chunky nuggets... I've got a couple of jewelers here in Arid-Zona and California that I sell mine to. They give me well above spot prices. The more "Character" they have the more they're willing to pay. These are old friends and they seldom buy from miners or people that they don't know.

 

[Tuolumne]

Nice, I studied cartography at Humboldt state. Arc map has a getting to know book with software out that's easy to use and great for mapping your claims. The blm geocommunicator maps with layers is cool to use and print out...I make a map and post it on the back of my corner markers

You can see the map if you look close next to my son....it's best to have map w marker because a high grader prospecting on your land can claim he didn't know which way the claim went. With map there's less chance of that mistake.

Thediggings.com website has some nice features, try this google your " full name" along with "gold claim"! Mine came up alonge with all my claim neighbors, recent filed documents and intention to hold filings w BLM. I could see neighboring inactive claims... Kinda cool kinda creepy. Lr2000 needs some tweaking too but that's for another post....

 

[Goldwasher]

Nice, I studied cartography at Humboldt state. Arc map has a getting to know book with software out that's easy to use and great for mapping your claims. The blm geocommunicator maps with layers is cool to use and print out...I make a map and post it on the back of my corner markers View attachment 1247850

You can see the map if you look close next to my son....it's best to have map w marker because a high grader prospecting on your land can claim he didn't know which way the claim went. With map there's less chance of that mistake.

Thediggings.com website has some nice features, try this google your " full name" along with "gold claim"! Mine came up alonge with all my claim neighbors, recent filed documents and intention to hold filings w BLM. I could see neighboring inactive claims... Kinda cool kinda creepy. Lr2000 needs some tweaking too but that's for another post....

A higrader on your claim can't claim crap!!!!!

 

[stefen]

Interesting dialog to a non-mining type.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Each state has slightly different claim marking requirements. Here in Arizona we are SUPPOSED to have all corners marked as well as a monument of discovery in plain sight with the claim map attached. Corners and monument are also SUPPOSED to be maintained and kept in good order. I'm amazed at how many claim owners out here do neither. Many claims that are listed as active in the LR2000 have no markers on them at all. When you're out in the desert and there's damn few nearby landmarks it can make locating someone elses claim a bit "Interesting". A full survey is not required but I sure wish that the BLM would start accepting GPS cords for locating claims. I'm good with the PLSS system on maps, but out in the field it's not always easy to be positive of where you're at when you're down in a wash and all you can see are the banks of the wash.

My claim corners will be fully marked with tags showing which corner it is and the direction and distance to the next corner. 6 foot lengths of 4 inch capped PVC pipe set 2 feet into the ground so they won't be easy to remove. I'm also going to paint the caps safety orange so they stand out. Only thing I should have to worry about will be idiots using them as targets. I catch someone shooting them up and I'll have to school them on the laws relating to disturbing claim markers.

 

[spillercanyon]

Any commercial miners want to talk about how the gold price going down has lead to high grading of the ore and how it lessens the life of a mine over the course of its mining by not being able to go back to get the lower grade economically and safety wise?

I'm not commercial but I sure look for those areas that were bypassed (for economical not safety reasons) in the 1800's or early 1900's, which with modern equipment and access, are now economical for a small mining op.

 

[spillercanyon]

I make a map and post it on the back of my corner markers

I do the same, with a "You are here" dot on each map.