Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

[ghostdog]

Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Ocean recovery, I can not identify the ships involved for sure.,but the area was somwhere off the coast of California. Sorry about the xtra large photo,could not reduce it.Ok,I found a little more imfo in my old notes, its possible the pictured bars may have been taken from the looted "Santa Anna", transfered to the "Content", which in turn shipwrecked itself,and sank.

 

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[Darren in NC]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

resized

 

[mariner]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Ghostdog,

Are you sure that these are gold bars, and not silver? For about ten years, I have been trying to locate a lot of silver bars that were supposedly found on the Oregon coast in the 1930s, and which I believe did come from the Content. I have some photographs of some of the people who were involved, so will dig them out and try to compare them.

Do you have any more information or photographs, or the name of any of the people that were involved? I would like to compare notes if you do. I can't make it out clearly, but are those letters on the bar that the guy is holding? They don't look like Spanish letters, but capital Arabic (ie English) letters, ending with CA.

Incidentally, I don't know if the Santa Ana was carrying gold bars. I think that its gold was in the form of 125,000 gold coins. I will check my notes. I think that Cavendish took all the gold back to England on his flagship, the Desire, and that the Content was loaded with other stuff, including silver bars that had been plundered earlier in the voyage. I had information that led me believe that the Content wrecked on the Oregon coast, including somebody who had held one of the bars. He said they weighed about 70 pounds each.

Mariner

 

[divewrecks]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

ghostdog, to me those Gold bars seem rather large to only weigh 70 lbs. ? But , I have never seen a 70 lb Gold bar so, I'm really not qualified to know. Thank you for the photo's. Dell

I would think so too. A Fort Knox gold bar is 7 inches x 3 and 5/8 inches x 1 and 3/4 inches. Weight is approximately 400 ounces or 27.5 pounds.

Stan

 

[old man]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

resized

Darren nice picture. I know one thing for sure. If that was a gold bar it would take someone like HayStack Calhoun to lift it, not the guy in the picture. Like others, I'm guessing it's silver.

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

The lettering on the bars looks like BLMCA, is that likely to be the Bureau of Land Management Ca ?

 

[ghostdog]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Sometime after I started this thread I was called to my job, I did not get back untill 6am today.Darren,thanks for the resize. Hi Dell,always like reading your posts.Mariner, my notes say, Sir Thomas Cavendish looted the Santa Anna, of gold bars,silver bars , and jewlery{stones etc.}. A part of this treasure was loaded onto the "Content". My notes also indicate the Bar being held is Gold,and weighs 70lbs..I agree it looks like more than 70lbs,and it is possible the caption I copied it from was a miss -print. The bars lined up on the lower left look different in size,than the bar being held and could be silver. The letters on the bar being held,in my opinon,were probably placed their for salavage documentation,which I cannot read either. I dont have the Content, going down off the Oregan coast,but somewhere South of San Francisco. I believe Cavendish like Drake,probably dumped lots of treasure and plate overboard,to lighten the ships load. This might account for random bars and other treasure being found with out reminents of a ship. Gd luck in your searches.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

The BLM Ca. was established in 1946 so the bars do not reflect that entity.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Ghostdog:
What is the source of your picture?

 

[mariner]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

ghostdog,

I wonder how reliable the sources are on which you based your notes. There is no reason why the Santa Ana would have been carrying silver bars, (which travelled the other way on the Manila Galleon route)and I know of no source that quotes gold bars, or gems for that matter.

The "official" Hakluyt account says that they took "122,000 pezos of gold : and the rest of the riches that the ship was laden with, was in silkes sattens, damaks, and muske and divers other merchandize." I do have copies of hand-written letters from Cavendish to a number of prominent people in England saying that he did not tell the Customs officers the truth about how much plunder he brought back, but no information that it included gold bars. A guy called Michael Mathes, a history professor now retired, is probably the foremost current authority on the Santa Ana, but I am pretty familiar with his work and don't think that he ever managed to find a copy of her manifest.

I hope you can tell us the source of your photograph.

Best,

Mariner

 

[Panfilo]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

I believe the foundry initials on the ingot are "SLM Co." and they appear to be modern, perhaps they are aluminum or zinc alloy, certainly not gold and perhaps not silver as the gentleman holding the ingot does appear to be of a certain age and holding up a 70 pound silver is a bit stressful, not in accordance with the fellows expression. Can you read "LAZY MONDAY" on the wooden beams on the left side, above the ingots on the floor? The lettering on the top, above the gentleman's hats reads "these were sea" and the square on the top left is probably an inset of another photograph making me believe this picture was taken from a 1930's magazine, perhaps Popular Mechanics. Just some thoughts.

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

When Cavendish returned, the exchange rate for the gold 2 escudo pistol coin dropped in London because they were so plentiful. This was either because much of the gold they brought back was minted in these pieces, or because Spanish merchants had their agents go to England and buy back the cargo. Nothing I have seen would lead me to believe the gold or silver bars would look any different than those types recovered from the Atocha. Silver went to China and did not come back except as worked plate.

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Ghostdog:

Other than from your notes, what source(s) stated or suggested that these bars were from an "ocean recovery" or from an area that was "somwhere off the coast of California"?

Also, a cubic foot of gold weighs 1206 pounds. The man in the pic may be carrying only 1/4th of that volume; but by his relaxed stance, he certainly isn't holding a 300 pound bar.
Don.....

 

[Darren in NC]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

It appears a random picture was inserted around the story of the Content and Drake's ventures. I believe the ingots are more modern since they have been stamped by a mining company. Nice guess, Panfilo. Popular Mechanics - May 1932...

http://books.google.com/books?q="these+were+sea+lying+close"&btnG=Search+Books

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Darren and Panfilo:
Great catch on that Popular Mechanics article!!
So at least the source of the pic is now determined.
I note the bar seems to be marked SLM CO rather than BLM CO. One WAG guess is the 'M CO' is 'mining company'.
What I didn't read in the article is any connection to the picture.
Don....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

good morning: I tend to agree with Mackaydon. Incidentally if those were Spanish DORE bars, the gold content would not be very high, so do not try to figure their weight in Au specific grav.

In Mexico, in the period that we are talking about, the bars were cast of a size that allowed two per animal, generally in the range of 45 kilos each. Relatively easy for both man and beast to handle.

Although as robbery increased, some resorted to simply casting the metal in blobs by a hole in the ground, then transporting the huge blobs - maybe 500 - 1000 lbs - by two wheeled carts which the Bandits couldn't handle. Obviously these were predominantly AG.

Some mule trains from Alamos were hundreds of animals long. Think of the logistics involved. Sheesh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

The last letter observed to the left of the gent holding the bar seems to extent into the ship's deck; therefore suggesting it was originally written in pencil on the pic.

 

[mariner]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Darren and Panfilo,

Great piece of detective work! Well done, and what a disappointment the truth sometimes turn out to be.

The silver bar supposedly found on teh Oregon coast and described to me by the guy who claimed to have held it (see earlier post) was said to be almost three foot long and instead of being of constant cross-section was splayed out and rounded at both ends. It was also said to carry various markings, including the cross of Lorraine (two horizontal bars on a single upright). I have never come across a silver bar anything like it, and can't understand why it would be cast in such a strange shape, because they would take up more space on a ship. Then, again, I have never seen a photograph of a 16th century silver bar. Has anybody else?

Mariner

 

[Peerless67]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Marina have you read these documents on the AGI site ?


Letter from licensed Santiago de Vera, president of the Audiencia of Manila, on the arrival of an English privateer, who had robbed and burned the galleon Santa Ana who left New Spain in 1587; need annual return from New Spain, people , arms and ammunition, construction of galleys and fortification of Manila. (Cat. 3469). Accompanies:

- Relationship made by Captain Thomas Alcala, the journey of the ship Santa Ana and her taken by English privateers when he went to the port of Acapulco. Undated. (Cat. 3508)

Letter from Santiago de Vera, governor of the Philippines, accounting for the news he has had on the presence of the English privateers who took and burned off the coast of California the galleon Santa Ana, who was in those islands to New Spain the previous year . Relates the amount of gold they stole, musk, silk, pearls, etc.., A cleric who was hanged in Manila and who left the crew and passengers on a deserted island, staying with some. Has decided to send the ships to New Spain with artillery to deal with these pirates and manufactures to meet the new artillery that draws from the strong and was burned in a fire in Manila

- Transfer of the steps taken against the English corsair between 7 February and 18 March 1588. Manila, 21 June 1588. (Cat. 3457)


Gary

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Then, again, I have never seen a photograph of a 16th century silver bar. Has anybody else?

I have actually seen a few silver bars from the late 1500's that conservator and historian Doug Armstrong had in a safe at his house.

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/tbars.htm