Flintlock Musket Escutcheon Plate

[Pat_Tucker]

This flintlock musket escutcheon plate has a Crown (British?) above or over the letters "GR". Can anyone tell me more information about the country of manufacture, name of the manufacturer, and precise dating of muskets with this type of markings?

View attachment 702691

 

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[TheCannonballGuy]

Your guess is correct, it is indeed British-made. The letters "GR" stand for Georgius Rex, which is Latin for King George. Time-dating based on the GR marking is problematic, because Britain had three King Georges during the era of flintlock muskets. Your escutcheon-plate is very similar to the ones on the famous "Brown Bess" muskets of the British military services, used from 1722 to 1838 ...but the Brown Bess escutcheons I've seen are "plainer," having only numbers insead of the crown and GR. So, your elaborately detailed crown-with-GR escutcheon plate may be from an Officer's ornate flintlock pistol rather than an enlisted-man's musket.

Perhaps somebody here at TN who is more deeply educated about Colonial-era firearms than I am can give you more info, and a more-specific ID and dating than I could in the info above.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

I've never seen one that elaborate on a Brown Bess either, like CannobballGuy the ones I have seen have either been plain, or engraved with regimental numbers. There were higher quality versions made though for officers which might explain your plate. You might try contacting IMA, they seem to be very knowledgeable in the field of antique firearms of that period.

Military Antiques, Military Collectibles and Militaria Home page IMA-USA.COM

 

[Pat_Tucker]

Thanks Cannon Ball Guy for the reply and information. I hadn't thought that it was part of a flintlock pistol, but is certainly a possibility. I look forward to thers with their comments too. Pat

 

[Pat_Tucker]

Thanks too Ken. I will ckeck-out the IMA website. Pat

 

[Iron Patch]

That's a real nice one. Since buttons weren't marked before the 1760s I'm guessing gun hardware probably wasn't either.... even though cannons were. And that openwork crown is usually associated with relics dating to the Rev war and not much beyond, so if I had to guess I'd call it 1760s-1780s. It's definitely early, no doubt about that.

 

[timekiller]

Best I could do ya!
http://www.pbase.com/richard_canada/image/57041343/original
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[BosnMate]

I thought I'd seen a picture of your plate, but I couldn't find it. What I did find in "Weapons of the American Revolution and accoutrements," By Warren Moore, were a number of pistols that had escutcheons closely resembling yours, however the photos showed side views of both sides of the pistol, and there isn't much of a view of the escutcheons. The book says they were usually left blank or engraved with the owners initials. My guess would be from a pistol, however I'll also muddy up the waters with a photo from the book, page 219. In those days a cartridge box contained individual loads of powder and ball wrapped up in paper "cartridges."

 

[BosnMate]

Best I could do ya!
RELLICS 2.jpg photo - Richard Eldon photos at pbase.com
Take Care,
Pete,

You have a ringer, but the one on the left is off a musket and I'll bet the one on the right is off a pistol. The pistols have escutcheons resembling the one in question, and none of the musket photos have a fancy one. The deal on the back to accept a serew or bolt makes me think the screw is holding the rear tang of the trigger guard, passes through the stock and anchors into the escutcheon. That or it's attached to leather like a cartridge box. The shape of the early flint lock pistol grips helps with that idea, while a musket has the trigger guard held by a screw that passes through the tang on the barrel, and I think the trigger guard is held on with pins.

 

[timekiller]

You have a ringer, but the one on the left is off a musket and I'll bet the one on the right is off a pistol. The pistols have escutcheons resembling the one in question, and none of the musket photos have a fancy one. The deal on the back to accept a serew or bolt makes me think the screw is holding the rear tang of the trigger guard, passes through the stock and anchors into the escutcheon. That or it's attached to leather like a cartridge box. The shape of the early flint lock pistol grips helps with that idea, while a musket has the trigger guard held by a screw that passes through the tang on the barrel, and I think the trigger guard is held on with pins.

They both have that type thumbplate Buddy,so could be either.Heavy dragoon pattern horse pistols have them just like the same one found on musket rifles Type 1 &type 2 Brown Besses.I'll say this though I think it was a little different as for the fancy.Reminds me of many Queen Anne style pistols of the day for the fancy look.But could be from blunderbust pistols,boxlock,or horse pistols. just as easy could be long guns too.Here's a pic though for ya showing how the dragoon thumplate is the same as the brown bess.The real early ones like I've found are tacked on from what I've seen.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[BosnMate]

They both have that type thumbplate Buddy,so could be either.Heavy dragoon pattern horse pistols have them just like the same one found on musket rifles Type 1 &type 2 Brown Besses.I'll say this though I think it was a little different as for the fancy.Reminds me of many Queen Anne style pistols of the day for the fancy look.But could be from blunderbust pistols,boxlock,or horse pistols. just as easy could be long guns too.Here's a pic though for ya showing how the dragoon thumplate is the same as the brown bess.The real early ones like I've found are tacked on from what I've seen.
Take Care,
Pete,

I'm sorry buddy, but Moore's book shows several pictures of escutcheons with the same finials top and bottom as the one we are talking about. But with the attachment on the back it makes me wonder about it being something else. If it was pinned or screwed onto the stock, there would be holes in it, so it has to be mounted like a side plate, where the screws pass through the stock and hold both the lock and side plate in place.

 

[timekiller]

I'm sorry buddy, but Moore's book shows several pictures of escutcheons with the same finials top and bottom as the one we are talking about. But with the attachment on the back it makes me wonder about it being something else. If it was pinned or screwed onto the stock, there would be holes in it, so it has to be mounted like a side plate, where the screws pass through the stock and hold both the lock and side plate in place.

See no problem with the back attachment looks like all the thumb plate escuctheons pretty much of the era.I was just saying that the earlier type pistols/muskets when you look at them have the tacked on thumb plate.Like the ones in my hand below................

Brown bess escuctheons..................................The "old soda bottle sorta" relic is an escutcheon plate off of a Brown Bess Musket*(n/t)

Another just like the OP's post here calling it a brown bess..............................http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/m...iment-marked-brown-bess-escutcheon-plate.html

Two in my hand from a site that did not give up nothing past say mid 1700's...................................

 

[Iron Patch]

Best I could do ya!
RELLICS 2.jpg photo - Richard Eldon photos at pbase.com
Take Care,
Pete,

I know where that pic came from, it's the friend/hunting bud/co-worker of someone I did many hunts with about 10 years ago... one we did for 10 days straight! Richard, who's finds that is hunted mostly 1812 sites, but also had a real good Butler's Rangers location. Every time I see a pic of his it reminds me of the great hunts I did with Mike.

 

[timekiller]

I know where that pic came from, it's the friend/hunting bud/co-worker of someone I did many hunts with about 10 years ago... one we did for 10 days straight! Richard, who's finds that is hunted mostly 1812 sites, but also had a real good Butler's Rangers location. Every time I see a pic of his it reminds me of the great hunts I did with Mike.

Nothing wrong with good old memories Buddy,but it's funny you say that cause when I look at that post above which I'll give again I was thinking to myself them finds look more early 1800's.The shards of pottery & other items seem a better fit for that time range.Same plate just marked different............................ http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/m...iment-marked-brown-bess-escutcheon-plate.html

19th .................. Service and Uniform of the British Regiments During the War of 1812

 

[Pat_Tucker]

Again, thanks to all who commented or offered opinions on the escutcheon plate. I did receive a personal e-mail from the HISTARCH discussion group from an individual affiliated with Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. He said this type dated between 1780 and 1800 based on stylistic differences. He also mentioned an article by Lee Burke, "Wilson Cypher Guns - Chief's Gun of the Revolutionary War," American Society of Arms Collectors (1994) shows a similar plate made bya British manufacturer in London who had a royal contract to produce these guns for the British military in North America and as presents to Indian leaders for their loyalty to the British Crown. Unfortunately, the society's website shows the article out-of-print.

If anyone has a copy of the article (10-pages) and can scan it into an Adobe Acrobat pdf file, I would gladly reimburse them for the expense to ne me a copy at my e-mail ([email protected]).

Pat

 

[Muddyhandz]

Nice find!

Here's one I found at a site that dates from 1800 to 1830......



Could be older.

Cheers,
Dave.

 

[Pat_Tucker]

Dave,

Is your escutcheon plate from a musket or pistol? And, how did you date the piece from 1800 to 1830?

Pat

 

[Muddyhandz]

Pat, I dated my site to 1800 to 1830. There were some items older and some newer but the date given was the average.
I'm the first to challenge people's romantic notions about their finds, having an analytical mind and adding other variables but this time I'm going to support the "Chief's presentation gun" theory.
I found my piece at a known Native meeting place. I did find other musket rifle parts but the only other escutcheon piece I found there was this.....




An article about this silver escutcheon appears in the Museum of the Fur Trade quarterly stating that it belonged to a chief's presentation gun.
My piece has been altered as they shaved the edges off for some odd reason.

More evidence on this notion is given your location and mine, as there were no Rev. war/of 1812 battles or forts. Nothing but Indian territory.
I could take a picture of the article that talks about my silver piece if you like.

Searching all my books, the only other "GR" plate I could find was in "Colonial Frontier Guns" by T.M. Hamilton. The picture won't reproduce here, but the accompanying text reads...."Another British military escutcheon. It has the King's mark, a crown over "GR", engraved on it's face. From the Brown site, 23Ve3, Nevada, Missouri.

I would love to read that article you mentioned about guns with that escutcheon being presented to chiefs.

I'll let you know if I find out anything else.

Dave.

 

[Iron Patch]

Pat, I dated my site to 1800 to 1830. There were some items older and some newer but the date given was the average.
I'm the first to challenge people's romantic notions about their finds, having an analytical mind and adding other variables but this time I'm going to support the "Chief's presentation gun" theory.
I found my piece at a known Native meeting place. I did find other musket rifle parts but the only other escutcheon piece I found there was this.....

View attachment 704031
View attachment 704035

An article about this silver escutcheon appears in the Museum of the Fur Trade quarterly stating that it belonged to a chief's presentation gun.
My piece has been altered as they shaved the edges off for some odd reason.

More evidence on this notion is given your location and mine, as there were no Rev. war/of 1812 battles or forts. Nothing but Indian territory.
I could take a picture of the article that talks about my silver piece if you like.

Searching all my books, the only other "GR" plate I could find was in "Colonial Frontier Guns" by T.M. Hamilton. The picture won't reproduce here, but the accompanying text reads...."Another British military escutcheon. It has the King's mark, a crown over "GR", engraved on it's face. From the Brown site, 23Ve3, Nevada, Missouri.

I would love to read that article you mentioned about guns with that escutcheon being presented to chiefs.

I'll let you know if I find out anything else.

Dave.

Now that's freakin weird! I had never seen one of these, and not even two hours ago happened to come across this ebay listing and sent a link to Romeo saying how cool it was, and had I seen it before it sold, I would have been tempted. What are the chances you then post one!

*RARE Antique War of 1812 Artefact Chief Gun Silver Escutcheon Isaac Brock | eBay

 

[romeo-1]

Freaky...these escutcheon plates are making me drool!!!