Farm finds from 11/30

[Mudonmyshoes]

Hit the farm again on Sunday. It was raining hard and they just planted winter wheat, so the all the tobacco is gone. Brep (Bret) my son usually joins me but he's has not been feeling up to par. I did manage to find some artifacts, but there are more pieces (some very large) of Rhyolite then anything. As Molly has stated in the past, the Rhyolite is not native to my area so I am hoping the are better finds to come.

Included in the photos below are a large point (preform?), two large bases of unknown material (one has purple specks but does not show in the pic), a blade, and a nutting stone/game stone.

Any help in identifying the types of materials and what type of points there are will always be welcomed. Thanks again......Mud

 

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[*Molly*]

The first peice looks like a pressure flake.
The next two are Savanah Rivers.
The last stone 'could' be a pecking stone.
All Rhyolite except the stone of course.

Sorry to hear Bret is ill? send my reguards.

Mud, Rhyolite was brought in has you know because of the lack of good materials in the state. In my two years hunting the Archaic site, I have come across some beautiful flakes, not Rhyolite, top grade Flint & Chalcadony. I find these flakes occasionally. Now we know from evidence that the Indians traded materials/arrows of top grade material, probably on their travels. Which leads me to believe, it's not easy to find any good graded material arrows.
By all means keep looking, but don't build your hopes up, like I used too. I think we have to appreciate Rhyolite, I have some beautiful points made from this material. Jasper is another material to look for, I haven't found any yet though.
Keep us posted, I enjoy seeing what you find.
Good Luck Hunting.

Molly. (JMHO)

 

[Mudonmyshoes]

Molly,

Thanks for the input. I kind of thought that the first piece was either a preform or a large flake. As for the dark colored base (purple specks), is that also Rhyolite? It's much heavier than other pieces of of Rhyolite we've found. Bret will be glad that you asked about him. He has the old cough and congestion thing going on and it would not have been the best idea to have him out in the rain. Thanks again for all your help....Mud

 

[*Molly*]

I hope he gets well real soon.
Yes Mud, that's rhyolite too, I have plenty, its speckled, usually a little heavier than the green rhyolite you have there.
Looks kinda orange, I know, but that discolouration is from the red soil, will be green in the centre, if you break the flake.
Glad to help.

Molly.

 

[creekhunter]

You are on a site I bet, way to go!

 

[Mudonmyshoes]

We have been hunting this site once a week for the last two months. We have found tons of shards, some points, bases, scrapers, etc.. I do not think this farm has been hunted recently due to the amount of material. A guy that I work with grew up on this farm and said he never even saw a point while working and playing there. Now that he has seen what we are finding he is amazed.

We hunted the first 7 times with full tobacco plants that were not harvested, which made it extremely difficult but we still came home with a bag of shards and broken pieces. Now that it's plowed we are hoping for some better finds and after hunting season we are going to search the creek that is adjacent to the farm......Thanks....Mud

 

[Cannonman17]

"The first peice looks like a pressure flake." Not a pressure flake. Pressure flakes are quite small and are removed by applying pressure to the edge of a piece with an antler or similar tool. The flake in the first pic is way to big to be a pressure flake... it's a percussion flake. Not that it matters, just a technical difference. Also, I'm not so sure the two labeled as savanah rivers are actually finished artifacts, the one looks like flaking debitage or maybe a utilized flake rather than a savanah river although I'm not sure about it.

When you mention finding tons of shards are you talking about pottery shards or flaking debitage? Either way it looks like you have a pretty good spot to look and you should be able to come up with some decent stuff, can't wait to see what you find!

 

[Mudonmyshoes]

Whoa there Cannonman, I did not mean to use the wrong terminology. My son and I are beginners. We are learning. The two I labeled bases are broken, and the one I labeled a blade is probably a flaking debitage but it looks like it was used as a scraper/blade. The one speckled base, when wet shows flaking on both sides. I do not know that much about what types they could have been that's why I asked. I appreciate your comments. As for the stone (last two photos), is it anything? It show white marks on one side of it like it was use to strike something. As for the shards, I used the wrong description, I meant flaking debitage (rhyolite). There is such a large quantity of large pieces that it makes me wonder why did they use it for making tools. As Molly stated, that material is not native to the area and you would figure they would use every bit. As usual please let me know your thoughts......Thanks...Mud

 

[*Molly*]

Firstly I have to disagree with Cannonman. The site I hunt is primarily Savanah River types, whether it be points, spears or blades/knives.
In the pic Mud, you will see a variety of Savanah Rivers, some hafted knives/blades & spear point. It's really impossible to mistype Savanah Rivers with there distinct bases. You are sure to find more of this type, especially with that amount of debrie, you'll come across points, spear points & blades/knives. All Rhyolite.
All the blades in the pic were utilized as blades, hafted onto shafts. They are finished, just broke or worn. The largest Savanah River is 4" used as a Knive/blade.
Hope this clarifies things.

Molly.

 

[Pinellas Man]

Looks like your looking in the right spot, no telling what you'll find. Keep looking & keep posting.

 

[gilmerman]

Keep every thing then during bad weather sit down get your text books out and go to work. you'll find you have to go to the books less and less.

 

[Cannonman17]

Firstly I have to disagree with Cannonman. The site I hunt is primarily Savanah River types, whether it be points, spears or blades/knives.
In the pic Mud, you will see a variety of Savanah Rivers, some hafted knives/blades & spear point. It's really impossible to mistype Savanah Rivers with there distinct bases. You are sure to find more of this type, especially with that amount of debrie, you'll come across points, spear points & blades/knives. All Rhyolite.
All the blades in the pic were utilized as blades, hafted onto shafts. They are finished, just broke or worn. The largest Savanah River is 4" used as a Knive/blade.
Hope this clarifies things.

Molly.

You've misunderstood what I was saying Molly.. I wasn't saying your typology was wrong, I was questioning whether or not they were artifacts at all (other than debitage.) They simply don't look like finished pieces to me, even knowing that many/most savanah rivers are quite crude.

 

[*Molly*]

I understood what you were saying Cannonman, I just disagree with you is all. We know that some rough rhyolite shows no flaking but still we can see it is a spear/arrow, its like Airborne said, It's really purplexing when one finds the same shaped rocks, over & over again. Debrie in my opinion would not all look the same shape, its impossible, looking at my pic of Savanah Rivers its obvious to what they are.
I have had extensive chats with Cliff & Matt about my site, the debrie, the Savanah Rivers etc, there is no doubt in my mind or Cliffs that they are indeed finished blades, I have over 30 knives/blades that are unfinished/preforms. Those are indeed finished Savanah River blades, rough I admit but, finished. Seems that the Indians that dwelled on the site I hunt, wasn't too concerned with fancy flaking, as long as the blade or spear got the job done, they were content with their creations.

Alls I can say is, I would have given anything to have an hour's chat with Greg Perino, he was from my state, he ID'd most of the blades/points.
I miss that dear man & I didn't even know him. Reading his insights into NC typology as helped me a great deal.

Molly.

 

[Cannonman17]

If Matt came on here and said, yep, those look like finished savanah rivers to me (ableit broken) I would concede otherwise I would have to say they are just flaking debitage, and a hammerstone. Couple look like utilized flakes maybe and the top flake is still a percussion flake.

 

[PALEOMAN]

i wont attempt to enter the debate about these artifacts except that the first pic is a percussion flake rather than a pressure flake.

 

[*Molly*]

Well everyones entitled to their opinion. I'm sure once Mud shows the pics to Cliff (NC) he will be sure what they are.
Also, I might remind you Mud is new to all this, I was trying not to confuse him with technical terminology. I have a few great sites that explain knapping, pressure flakes, percussion flakes. I will be sure to pass them on to him.
Just trying to keep it simple. I remember when I first started collecting, the ppl that preached technical terminology, baffled me. I figured until he is more conversant with types, he would move on to knapping.
JMHO.

Molly.

 

[Urban Grund]

Very nice! Love to see more!

 

[fossis]

I understood what you were saying Cannonman, I just disagree with you is all. We know that some rough rhyolite shows no flaking but still we can see it is a spear/arrow, its like Airborne said, It's really purplexing when one finds the same shaped rocks, over & over again. Debrie in my opinion would not all look the same shape, its impossible, looking at my pic of Savanah Rivers its obvious to what they are.
I have had extensive chats with Cliff & Matt about my site, the debrie, the Savanah Rivers etc, there is no doubt in my mind or Cliffs that they are indeed finished blades, I have over 30 knives/blades that are unfinished/preforms. Those are indeed finished Savanah River blades, rough I admit but, finished. Seems that the Indians that dwelled on the site I hunt, wasn't too concerned with fancy flaking, as long as the blade or spear got the job done, they were content with their creations.

Alls I can say is, I would have given anything to have an hour's chat with Greg Perino, he was from my state, he ID'd most of the blades/points.
I miss that dear man & I didn't even know him. Reading his insights into NC typology as helped me a great deal.

Molly.

I met Greg Perino breifly at the 'Museum of the Red River', (Idabel OK) & I hunted with a few guys who knew him, he
was the one everyone went to for artifact Id's.

Fossis...............